Certification Exams

**pete376403** · 17th March 2008, 10:27

I got the msce thing way back in NT4.0 days, which they then promptly retired. Couldn't do the "upgrade to 2000 exam as one of my quals was "supporting Win95", rather than NT4 workstation, even tho the 95 exam was part of the NT4.0 track.
couldn't be arsed laying down another $10k and starting all over again, and then having THAT retired, and doing it again (and again, and again...)
Employers (or more accurately, recruitment agencies) demands for certifiction* are more about covering their own arse, so that when the paper MCSE they recommended for the job fucks up, they can bleat "well he had all the qualifications..."
I've worked with any number or (mostly Asian) "mcse's" who were completely incapable of the most basic tasks

(Certifiction - (n) claiming to be qualified to perform a task by virtue of holding a paper. No experience required)

**James Deuce** · 17th March 2008, 17:15

After 21 exams in 6 years I gave up.

Too much time, too much effort and no recognition or recompense. When they decided that Windows 2000 MCSE's needed yet two MORE exams to maintain "competency" and gain a Server 2003 qual I flagged it.

No disrespect to your achievements lads and keep up the good work. It can have an immediate return, but for someone like me it becomes pointless after a while. I think they need to change the model from exams to practicums. I think there is too much emphasis on the intellectual in IT, when it is more of a trade, and experience rather than qualifications is the real decider when the chips are down. When you ask someone on the helldesk (with a Server 2003 MCSE)to add someone to a security group and they ask, "how?", and you say, "duh, through AD", and they look at you blankly, you know that the model isn't working as intended.

**yod** · 17th March 2008, 17:19

Originally Posted by Jim2

After 21 exams in 6 years I gave up.

Too much time, too much effort and no recognition or recompense. When they decided that Windows 2000 MCSE's needed yet two MORE exams to maintain "competency" I flagged it.

No disrespect to your achievements lads and keep up the good work. It can have an immediate return, but for someone like me it becomes pointless after a while. I think they need to change the model from exams to practicums. I think there is too much emphasis on the intellectual in IT, when it is more of a trade, and experience rather than qualifications is the real decider when the chips are down. When you ask someone on the helldesk (with a Server 2003 MCSE)to add someone to a security group and they ask, "how?", and you say, "duh, through AD", and they look at you blankly, you know that the model isn't working as intended.

a cynical post from Jim2?

im shocked

**James Deuce** · 17th March 2008, 18:06

Originally Posted by yod

a cynical post from Jim2?

im shocked

You might want to read it again. I think your cynic sphincter had a spasm.

**yod** · 17th March 2008, 18:09

Originally Posted by Jim2

You might want to read it again. I think your cynic sphincter had a spasm.

oh...apologies

force of habit

**pzkpfw** · 17th March 2008, 18:34

Force is bad for your sphincter.

**Lias** · 17th March 2008, 18:37

Both me and Wolf are well aware that people can have quals and no substance.. Whilst not quite as grizzled a veteran as he is, I have been working in IT for an ungodly 13 or so years now.

I have in the past encountered my fare share of dickheads with quals ranigng form A+ up to a fully fledges MCSE who were completely fucking useless in a real world environment.

My theory is the quals + the experience + the fact i've finally gotten off my arse and gotten a cage license will reap profits this year. If not it may be time to whip out the etherkiller.

**Wolf** · 17th March 2008, 20:29

Originally Posted by YellowDog

What annoys me is the people who just buy a book on passing the MCPs and pass, yet know bugger all.

Originally Posted by Krayy

In a nutshell, anyone can pick up a book and pass it within a couple of days, and sometimes these "professionals" end up in positions of responsibility that are way beyond their level of expertise. I worked with a bloke in a Novell environment that got his CNE and wore the lapel pin everywhere like the dork he was and what he didn't tell people was that he learned the material it out of a crib notes book. I spent most of my time (with my lapel pin firmly in a sock drawer at home) fixing his f**k ups.

Originally Posted by pete376403

I've worked with any number or (mostly Asian) "mcse's" who were completely incapable of the most basic tasks

(Certifiction - (n) claiming to be qualified to perform a task by virtue of holding a paper. No experience required)

Originally Posted by Jim2

When you ask someone on the helldesk (with a Server 2003 MCSE)to add someone to a security group and they ask, "how?", and you say, "duh, through AD", and they look at you blankly, you know that the model isn't working as intended.

Believe me, I hear and understand what you guys are saying. It's not just the 5-day-course-then-sit-2-exams certs either, I've encountered complete know-it-all twats without a real clue who have University degrees - notably an ex-classmate of mine who got a Bachelors in Comp. Sci at Waikato. I dropped out of the varsity course, spent some time on the dole then bluffed my way into a programming job (with my background in Pascal and self-taught BASIC) and eventually landed a permanent job based on how well I'd performed. After he had graduated, this bloke came around to borrow my computer and couldn't even switch it on, then he nearly fucked the floppy drive trying to insert the boot diskette sideways - but he was more "qualified" than I. I'm sure he could tell me all about Charles Babbage's Differential Engine and Dame Ida Lovelace or the theory of storing effective databases, though...

When I sat my Netware v4.0 CNA, I had just missed out on being able to sit the v3.12 exams by a couple of months. Pity, as I could have passed the 3.12 exam based entirely on my practical experience (basically an RPL), having worked with Novell bindary-mode servers since v1.0. But, nah, they said the new standard was v4.0 and I actually had to learn something new (Novell Directory Services) on the course. I didn't have any experience of NDS at all as we were a 3.12 shop so I found the exam hard. When I upgraded to v5 CNA, it was easier as I'd been using Netware v5 for around 3 months and the NDS was old hat.

What gets me is the number of kids these days that look at you if you're speaking a foreign language the minute you start talking of the command line and don't even know how to write basic batch files or use the arguments with the DOS commands to get speedy results that the GUI cannot do.

They'll be fucked soon - Server 2008 is going back to the CLI and a smaller footprint to compete with Linux. They won't have the pretty GUI and wizards to make it easy, just arcane commands and arguments.

Originally Posted by Tank

As an employer - we value them, and the effort that people put into getting them.

We pay $450 for each paper someone passes as a 'thanks for the effort'.

Hmmmm, any vacancies for 44-year-old bikers with entry-level Microsoft certifications?

**pzkpfw** · 18th March 2008, 07:26

Originally Posted by Wolf

I dropped out of the varsity course, spent some time on the dole then bluffed my way into a programming job (with my background in Pascal and self-taught BASIC) and eventually landed a permanent job based on how well I'd performed.

Yeah, I dropped out, basically, finished my degree extramurally. Luckily no employers have asked to see my transcript. My new car felt like home - the plate starts with "DNC".

Originally Posted by Wolf

They'll be fucked soon - Server 2008 is going back to the CLI and a smaller footprint to compete with Linux. They won't have the pretty GUI and wizards to make it easy, just arcane commands and arguments.

Programming has gone that "GUI way" in many ways, and I hate it. It's all well and good dragging and dropping text boxes onto a form to place them, but then all sorts of non-visual stuff starts getting done by dragging and dropping and clicking-up the properties windows. Add to that all the arcane XML config files that pop-up everywhere. Bah.

I like a CLI, and I like programming. Drag-drop-click-click-click is for Honda riders and Mac users.

**James Deuce** · 18th March 2008, 07:54

Yeah, I'm looking forward to Powershell too. It's a lot more intuitive than Windows Shell Scripting, and a lot less code intensive.

The best thing will be being able to build all the remote servers I manage with a CLI so the buggers can't use them as workstations.

**Wolf** · 18th March 2008, 08:18

Originally Posted by Jim2

Yeah, I'm looking forward to Powershell too. It's a lot more intuitive than Windows Shell Scripting, and a lot less code intensive.

The best thing will be being able to build all the remote servers I manage with a CLI so the buggers can't use them as workstations.

And the blow-hard in Marketing who has an XP workstation doesn't feel he's "qualified" to do things on the server due to how it looks the same...