Fork cartridges...Ohlins vs Traxxion

[Robert Taylor]

i thought stevie rode very well all year, not the fastest bike, with help from robert and kerry, he got better and more confident as the nationals went on, the help we and he recieved was outstanding and we now know what the others have in there bikes,

Yes, his politeness and gratitude was one of my abiding memories. Such a refreshing change to ( for example ) the world of junior MX where little Johny may have had everything given to him from an early age and continues to expect nothing less.

[Tony.OK]

What the hell are you thinking dude?! This is the new millenium.....you've won a coupla races so just retire undefeated, get yourself a nice wee drug habit, a coupla skanks to look after the place and enjoy the fruits of your labours....this "constant search for improvement" business is just so last century......

Seriously, mate yours was one of the stellar performances of the weekend, and you looked so smooth doing it. That you are still thinking about sensible improvements (numpty's like me chase unuseable horsepower every time, haha), and asking questions, says a lot about why you are already so quick.

Oh you've just reminded me.......have to get bike dyno'd before it blows up

Still chasing HP too mate,just don't want to get into the motor just yet.............its still under warranty if no one tells Mr Honda dealer its a racer hehee

[Robert Taylor]

I can't help but think that it would be possible to set up a controlled experiment to measure suspension performance.

Data on vertical accelerations transmitted through the top of a shock absorber (ie, ride smoothness) combined with the total amount of wheelspin (ie, how well it maintains traction) should be the desired output, no?

Not sure how you'd set that up to control all variables aside from the shock absorber itself; you'd want to be able to do some kind of repeatable run across a surface with various irregularities with identical power input to the wheel each time.

You could then reliably correlate damping curves and spring rates against ride quality and traction levels, etc.

I hear what Mr Taylor et al are saying in these threads, but it all sounds very subjective - how can one prove that a certain damping curve affects behaviour on certain surfaces at certain speeds in a certain way? Common sense, intuition, rider impressions and lap times on circuits are all well and good, but wouldn't stand up as data in a scientific journal.

Sure, you can measure how a shock performs in a machine that squeezes it and pulls it, but where's the hard correlation to how that behaviour will affect traction and ride quality?

It'd make an interesting ME thesis project.

I assume that such rigorous experimentation is performed by the engineers at Ohlins and Penske during the design process, but of course we wouldn't have access to any of the data generated thereby; it'd be strictly a trade secret.

All this ongoing suspension discussion sounds a bit like smoke and mirrors to me. Engine tuning, for instance, is easy to quantify - run the engine on a dyno and observe the torque it generates.

Suspension, though? It all seems so subjective, so 'I liked the feel of this' or 'I rode faster on that'. Robert asserts that such and such a design provides benefits, but how on earth can that be quantified?

Robert, if you have a chance to address the subject, I personally would be quite interested to see some damping curve graphs, with explanations of how each curve affects ride quality and traction on different types of surface irregularities traversed at various speeds.

Heck, I couldn't even tell you what the axes on a 'damping curve graph' should be. Would two dimensions even be sufficient?

I read all this 'high/low speed' stuff as indicating that the rate of compression does not have to change linearly as the force changes; ie, ten times the compressive force does not have to equal a ten-times-faster rate of compression - it can equal a twenty-times-faster rate, etc.

Showing the rate of compression given a particular force against a particular compression position would require three dimensions. Is that how the curves are graphed?

Actually the reality of testing is a whole lot less simple than thought. The most sophisticated datalogging that I work with has a very fast sampling rate and is installed in Carl Hansems megabuck TVR Tuscan race car. Even that has limitations. One of the big variables is the frequency response of the tire sidewalls. If youve got maybe 3 to 5 million to build a variable axis shake rig and have all the time in the world then go for it! No ones done that yet because it also has to take stock of commercial reality.

[Robert Taylor]

"CORRECTED" As I have told you many times now, the Penske Units I bring in, and Steve won on, are Genuine from Penske Racing Factory, NO TECHNICIAN has modified them as yet!

Traxxion Gas charched cartridges- $ 2695-00- Not to bad, and within range of another product.

I am only a middle man, so no skin of my nose what people purchase, Just trying to give a quality alternative service, with a product that I would be very happy to ride on.

2006 /07 Chris Seaton first up race winner on TTX36 straight out of the box
Sam Smith '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' ''

As we have begun to understand these dampers further we have optimised the settings to our tracks to improve further yielding lower lap times etc.

When you have a shock that is ''not quite right'' ( and it WILL happen ) you have to be prepared for it

[Shaun]

2006 /07 Chris Seaton first up race winner on TTX36 straight out of the box
Sam Smith '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' ''

As we have begun to understand these dampers further we have optimised the settings to our tracks to improve further yielding lower lap times etc.

When you have a shock that is ''not quite right'' ( and it WILL happen ) you have to be prepared for it

This is starting to read like some kind of a competition, So I will back out of it now, if anyone wants to ask me any questions RE Traxxion or Penske, just PM or email from now on please.

And once again, Ohlin's and Robert are good, but so is Penske and Traxxion

[Robert Taylor]

This is starting to read like some kind of a competition, So I will back out of it now, if anyone wants to ask me any questions RE Traxxion or Penske, just PM or email from now on please.

And once again, Ohlin's and Robert are good, but so is Penske and Traxxion

Only in as much as there needs to be crystal clear understanding about the actual reality of what happens and how it is all backed up etc.

[gixerracer]

This is starting to read like some kind of a competition, So I will back out of it now, if anyone wants to ask me any questions RE Traxxion or Penske, just PM or email from now on please.

And once again, Ohlin's and Robert are good, but so is Penske and Traxxion

You win Robert

[GSVR]

Yeap until Suzuki Yamaha and Honda start making safe suspension that works every racer will all be forced to spend thousands of dollars on aftermarket equipment.

Production bike racing should be just that. If a manufacturer puts shit suspension on his bike then no one would race it and they would quickly start losing sales.

Its a conspiracy to rip off joe average.

[jrandom]

This is starting to read like some kind of a competition...

Aren't we talking about motorcycle races where your products are competing on the track against Robert's, with the stickers on every race winner's forks determining a significant portion of each company's sales revenue over the following weeks?

Yeah, true, you're right, couldn't have it sounding like a competition.

[jrandom]

Yeap until Suzuki Yamaha and Honda start making safe suspension that works...

They do make safe suspension that works.

But they're not going to make the best possible suspension they can regardless of cost, or they'd start losing money hand over fist to their competitors who had a better grasp of commercial reality.

[gixerracer]

Yeap until Suzuki Yamaha and Honda start making safe suspension that works every racer will all be forced to spend thousands of dollars on aftermarket equipment.

Production bike racing should be just that. If a manufacturer puts shit suspension on his bike then no one would race it and they would quickly start losing sales.

Its a conspiracy to rip off joe average.

Thats a pretty sad way to look at it, if suzuki yamaha honda etc put racing suspension in there road bikes they wouldnt sell them any way because the difference required between road and track is huge and if some was to ride my gsxr 1000 with its current suspension setup race orientated on the road the would hate and want there money back anyway.

[jrandom]

if some was to ride my gsxr 1000 with its current suspension setup race orientated on the road the would hate and want there money back

Would you like a volunteer to help you test that theory?

[GSVR]

Thats a pretty sad way to look at it, if suzuki yamaha honda etc put racing suspension in there road bikes they wouldnt sell them any way because the difference required between road and track is huge and if some was to ride my gsxr 1000 with its current suspension setup race orientated on the road the would hate and want there money back anyway.

So if you where given a Stock out of the box(crate) GSXR you would not be able to race against another stock GSXR? Admittedly you would not break any lap records but would the bike be dangerous?

[Robert Taylor]

Yeap until Suzuki Yamaha and Honda start making safe suspension that works every racer will all be forced to spend thousands of dollars on aftermarket equipment.

Production bike racing should be just that. If a manufacturer puts shit suspension on his bike then no one would race it and they would quickly start losing sales.

Its a conspiracy to rip off joe average.

Oh my giddy Aunt!..............not that tired old and comprehensively discredited line of thinking again.

No-one is going to ''force'' you to spend thousands of dollars and in fact you miss the reality of why in real terms the bikes are now so affordable. Production sportsbikes have suspension that is built to a price to keep the cost down in a very competitive market, worldwide. Even more so with standard toring bikes and cruisers. The suspension must attempt to ''satisfy'' a wide range of rider height / weights and thats a very tough call, especially in markets like this where we have a much higher percentage of bumpy roads ( and tracks ) that will challenge the suspension. Largely, you get passable performance on road.
As I reasonably recall total worldwide motorcycle production for NZ per annum is approx 2 to 3 hours, woefully short of a total required to justify more individualisation to the market. So that in itself is a grip on reality....Conspiracy theories? JFK yes,''evil motorcycle manufacturers'' ripping off joe average I think not. What they are guilty of is marketing terms such as ''race bred suspension'' Say it often enough and people will believe it. Joseph Goebbels must be laughing in his grave.
Yes they could have top shelf suspension components but the end price would be significantly higher, now that would attract plenty of grizzling here in this ( too often ) insular country. And then there is always the need to individualise according to rider weight and application etc, more grizzling? Companies like Ohlins and Race Tech exist to improve suspension performance, I take my metaphorical hat off to them as such people are first and foremost engineers engaged in improving our world.
In the 70s through to mid 80s bikes had a lot less horsepower, much much more chassis flex and narrow section tyres with less grip. The loads placed on suspension components were dramatically less, so you could get away with just winding up the preload on the stock ''chatter sticks'' And there werent a great deal of options.
But this is not the 70s, we have stiff chassis and wide section tyres that put enormous force into the suspension. Add in massive engine torque and slick tyres ( for production superbike ) and those loads are further magnified. So with stock suspenders youve got a wobbling piece of jelly that squats and runs wide off corners and very quickly screws its tyres on every track in NZ.
Even at track day level I constantly field calls from riders of all capacities of bikes that are screwing their tyres with stock suspension or second hand aftermarket suspension that they have bought privately and is not sprung and set up for them.
The cure is ( of course ) good quality aftermarket suspension allied with full and proper backup. And a second level that we are working on with respecing the stock shocks, although this wont reach the same ultimate level, and frankly many of these chatter sticks you cant do a hell of a lot with.
In 600 sports production and production superbike the tyre bills would go up ENORMOUSLY if they were restricted to stock suspension, FACT. In fact the further tyre usage would eat into what was otherwise spent on suspension and some. And there is no doubt at all that crashes and injuries would increase alarmingly. That would be dumb.

[Robert Taylor]

They do make safe suspension that works.

But they're not going to make the best possible suspension they can regardless of cost, or they'd start losing money hand over fist to their competitors who had a better grasp of commercial reality.

Yep, commercial reality are the two key words.