Fork cartridges...Ohlins vs Traxxion

[Robert Taylor]

so,
robert for next year for the sv650 what do you recommend and is there any new products still to come onto the market before december 2008 and your help and advice was very confidence building and much appreciated.
whats your views on carbon fibre wheels over standard ?
shawn please answer as well......

Yes indeed there is more new stuff and worthwhile incremental improvements on the way through the year. Ohlins have over 60 engineers and the biggest R&D facility of any of the top level suspension manufacturers, development is relentless.
We are also ( as previously eluded to ) having an Ohlins technician out here later in the year to run a couple of road race schools for our best Ohlins customers.
As for the CF wheels the jury may still be out over their ultimate safety for such a heavily loaded component. But certainly lightweight wheels in any material will provide immediate steering and direction change benefits because their is less inertia to changing direction. Also suspension is always ''reverberating'' between compression and rebound, reduce the inertia ''hanging off it and it too will be more responsive.

[GSVR]

I would have thought the tyre wear issue would be more noticable on the road where you don't have the luxury of tyre warmers and your tyres would cold shear. Couldn't the problem of high tyre wear be reduced by just fitting a harder compound?

To put it another way some guys in Streetstock and Postclassic with totally stuffed suspensions reacon their tyres last them a season why can't a Superbike rider get his to last for more than 20 laps?

[Robert Taylor]

I would have thought the tyre wear issue would be more noticable on the road where you don't have the luxury of tyre warmers and your tyres would cold shear. Couldn't the problem of high tyre wear be reduced by just fitting a harder compound?

To put it another way some guys in Streetstock and Postclassic with totally stuffed suspensions reacon their tyres last them a season why can't a Superbike rider get his to last for more than 20 laps?

I really dont believe Im answering this or ( frankly ) that youve asked it. Its got more than a little to do with horsepower and torque and the level you are riding at. Where have you been when WSB and MotoGp is televised? I really do hope this is not a perverse wind up.....

[gixerracer]

Would you like a volunteer to help you test that theory?

You may need to send me your bank account details 1st

[gixerracer]

So if you where given a Stock out of the box(crate) GSXR you would not be able to race against another stock GSXR? Admittedly you would not break any lap records but would the bike be dangerous?

Thats a very interesting question. Yes we could race them no worries but man it would cost more money than it does now because they would handle like shit and we would crash alot, I no that as a stock road bike they seem pretty grunty but trust me compared to one in race trim they are really very tame we could run stock suspension i guess if the motors were totally un tuned which would then require leaving the stock exhaust on which cost more than an after market to replace when you wreck etc etc. I have done many laps around manfeild on standard suspension running in 600s in the past and at a medium pace its ok but once you try and go quicker they just cant cope and were are talking 3-4 seconds of race pace they just get hot and go all mushy after only 3-4 laps so no we certainly couldnt race 160hp thousands on stock units it just wouldnt work.

[gixerracer]

I would have thought the tyre wear issue would be more noticable on the road where you don't have the luxury of tyre warmers and your tyres would cold shear. Couldn't the problem of high tyre wear be reduced by just fitting a harder compound?

To put it another way some guys in Streetstock and Postclassic with totally stuffed suspensions reacon their tyres last them a season why can't a Superbike rider get his to last for more than 20 laps?

Superbike tyres are only designed to be good for 20 laps thats why they go as fast as they do because they have lots of grip we can get tyres to last 60 laps if you want but the lap times would be shit the bikes would suck to ride what would even be to bloddy point of having a superbike if you cant get the best out of it after its a race and motor bike racing isnt cheap if you want to win? its what we chose to do insted of going to pub or smoking P its our own little addiction
As for your comments about street stocks lasting a year this true as I raced one for a season but get reall youcant compare them or postclassic to a mdoern 200+hp superbike really can you?

[GSVR]

Thanks for the answers Robert and Craig. You have given me plenty to think about for a while.

Just on the subject of tyre wear it seems the major factor in how fast they wear is how much HP/Torque your trying to put down to the track. (stating the obvious)

What would be interesting would be to quantify the increased tyre wear for two identical Superbikes (same HP) ridden by the same rider with the same tyres. One bike has the state of the art race suspension the other has stock Mr OEM suspension.

Craigs comment about the stock shock going mushy after a few laps reminds me about what you said (Robert) about the crap suspension in V8 supercars. Imagine bike racers wrapping their shocks in ice before a race!

And Robert as for your comment in a previous post about the tyre bill increasing I do not believe this would be so as the rules state you can only use a certain number of tyres. All riders would have to go to a harder compound and adjust their riding to suit.

I remember when Rossi was winning on the 1000ccc MotoGP bikes he seemed to always be on harder compound tyres than most of other riders and when it came to the final stages of the race he was able to crank the pace up while others where struggling on shagged tyres.

And I'm not really trying to wind you up about suspension if Ray Clee was on here I'd probably debate as to why Superbikes are allowed any engine modification at all. Why can't the rules say stock engine no mods whatsoever? Would save alot in tyre wear right?

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks for the answers Robert and Craig. You have given me plenty to think about for a while.

Just on the subject of tyre wear it seems the major factor in how fast they wear is how much HP/Torque your trying to put down to the track. (stating the obvious)

What would be interesting would be to quantify the increased tyre wear for two identical Superbikes (same HP) ridden by the same rider with the same tyres. One bike has the state of the art race suspension the other has stock Mr OEM suspension.

Craigs comment about the stock shock going mushy after a few laps reminds me about what you said (Robert) about the crap suspension in V8 supercars. Imagine bike racers wrapping their shocks in ice before a race!

And Robert as for your comment in a previous post about the tyre bill increasing I do not believe this would be so as the rules state you can only use a certain number of tyres. All riders would have to go to a harder compound and adjust their riding to suit.

I remember when Rossi was winning on the 1000ccc MotoGP bikes he seemed to always be on harder compound tyres than most of other riders and when it came to the final stages of the race he was able to crank the pace up while others where struggling on shagged tyres.

And I'm not really trying to wind you up about suspension if Ray Clee was on here I'd probably debate as to why Superbikes are allowed any engine modification at all. Why can't the rules say stock engine no mods whatsoever? Would save alot in tyre wear right?

Stock bikes at track days 600 and 1000cc with hard compound tyres are screwing their tyres. I think that more than answers the question. They have passable performance and passable life on the road, which is what they are primarily built for. Put them anywhere near a track and the limitations are evident straight away.
I for one am not interested in ''dumbing down'' the premier classes. That is stated from a technical and safety perspective.

[GSVR]

Stock bikes at track days 600 and 1000cc with hard compound tyres are screwing their tyres. I think that more than answers the question. They have passable performance and passable life on the road, which is what they are primarily built for. Put them anywhere near a track and the limitations are evident straight away.

Sorry just wanted to quote this.

[Tony.OK]

Stock bikes at track days 600 and 1000cc with hard compound tyres are screwing their tyres. I think that more than answers the question. They have passable performance and passable life on the road, which is what they are primarily built for. Put them anywhere near a track and the limitations are evident straight away.
I for one am not interested in ''dumbing down'' the premier classes. That is stated from a technical and safety perspective.

Sorry just wanted to quote this.

The stock rear in my bike couldn't handle the extra grip from a race tyre at all,after one session on the old track at Taupo the shock resevoir was so hot you couldn't touch it,and after a while it was just getting dangerous to be out there with a self destructing tyre,the pics show what was a brand new tyre at the start of the day.
Since putting the Ohlins on rear grains nicely and shock doesn't get much above warm.
Pic 1
Pic 2

[GSVR]

The stock rear in my bike couldn't handle the extra grip from a race tyre at all,after one session on the old track at Taupo the shock resevoir was so hot you couldn't touch it,and after a while it was just getting dangerous to be out there with a self destructing tyre,the pics show what was a brand new tyre at the start of the day.
Since putting the Ohlins on rear grains nicely and shock doesn't get much above warm.
Pic 1
Pic 2

Yeap I've seen tyres like that off Ohlins equipped bikes too.

The way we got around the problem was to go up to a harder compound. You can also get the temp level and wear of a tyre right by adjusting the tyre pressures. And also by by having the right spring in your shock and adjusting the rebound and damping. Of course the way the front is set up will effect the rear as well.

And also the way you roll on the gas.

When Taupo was new it dealt to tyres something chronic.

One thing is for sure when a tyre starts to cold shear like that it will only get worse.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeap I've seen tyres like that off Ohlins equipped bikes too.

The way we got around the problem was to go up to a harder compound. You can also get the temp level and wear of a tyre right by adjusting the tyre pressures. And also by by having the right spring in your shock and adjusting the rebound and damping. Of course the way the front is set up will effect the rear as well.

And also the way you roll on the gas.

When Taupo was new it dealt to tyres something chronic.

One thing is for sure when a tyre starts to cold shear like that it will only get worse.

Thats a little mischievous and frankly a little naive for you to say that because the reality is there are a lot of second hand Ohlins shocks ( and others ) out there that have been resold and have not been sprung and optimised for the new rider! Not to mention the ''one shock fits all mentality'' where Joe Bloggs will fit a shock that is totally unsuitable for the bike, it is sprung and damping calibrated for a completely different linkage system and therefore motion ratio. And if same happens at least there is a full facility available in this country to sort it out. But being the way many of us are there is often a reluctance to do things properly or to try and do so on ( for whatever arguable reasons ) is an unrealistically tight budget!

''Adjusting the rebound and damping'' is I guess you mean externally, that doesnt actually cut the mustard on many stock shocks because even with the comp adjuster wound all the way in the rear will still squat excessively and screw the tyre. Its about the internal shim stack calibration and the size of bypass bleed, whilst still trying to maintain a good pressure balance. But then if you instal more aggressive damping to afford some control more damping equals more heat buildup more quickly and therefore the shock goes off more quickly! Just changing springs to clean up the tyre also doesnt work consistently, Crudely, springs are about position, damping is about controlling change of position.

You are also confused about what cold shear is and shear that is occuring for other reasons.

Racers are all about wanting to be able to roll the throttle on sooner and running as soft a compound as they can get away with to both maximise grip and to get the tyre to just last long enough. Your suggestions are ( in effect )about making people go slower.

[GSVR]

The point I was trying to make is as well as not having a properly set up Ohlins shock there are many other factors that can cause a tyre to wear like that.

[Robert Taylor]

The point I was trying to make is as well as not having a properly set up Ohlins shock there are many other factors that can cause a tyre to wear like that.

I understand exactly what you were trying to say and responded accordingly, END.

[cowpoos]

The point I was trying to make is as well as not having a properly set up Ohlins shock there are many other factors that can cause a tyre to wear like that.

there are so many factors that cause so many issues...that robert doesn't have the time to write you a 1,000,000 word eassay that probally only just scratche's the surface on the probability of the situations that he has come accross in his career let alone what other tracks roads and surfaces around the world bring to light!