Fork cartridges...Ohlins vs Traxxion

[Tony.OK]

Ok so I hope this does'nt annoy certain people but here goes....
Based on standard delivered from factory settings is one brand better than the other?
I currently have Traxxion AK-20's in and have the opportunity to get some Ohlins FGK 126 cartridges with superbike valve specs for a very very good price,I'm having trouble getting a good set up with the AK's,am tearing fronts fairly badly,I've tried just about everything to improve the wear but not getting anywhere,am happy with the handling though.
With whatever I get back on selling my AK's this makes the Ohlins an even better deal,only trouble is that "yes" they are privately imported.
I'm not trying to stir anyone up but being without sponsorship and on a very limited budget money does count,especially when the difference is into the 4 figure mark.

[Pussy]

Hey Tony, I'm not a racer, but have had experience of both cartridges you mention as a road rider. From my experience, I have found the performance of the Ohlins cartridges to be primo.
I had the first set of AK20s in a road bike in NZ (fitted to a K4 GSX-R1000). As delivered, they had quite weak high speed rebound, RT revalved them a couple of times to get the ideal setting. The AK20s were of course valved a bit less aggressive on the compression side to make them more comfy for my road riding.
After some time, and not being 100% delighted with the AK20s ( bearing in mind I am no "gun" rider), I got RT to get me a set of FGK cartridges, to give them a bash. For starters, the quality of manufacture of the Ohlins articles is very obvious. They are VERY well toleranced, and offer virtually zero stiction. Again, RT valved them to suit my road riding, and I was off, happier than a pig in shit. I transferred these cartridges to my K6 GSX-R1000 when I bought that. Same deal
The FGK119 cartridges don't fit the K6 750, but RT traded them on the set I now have in my 750. There are lots of valving combinations available, with dyno print out graphs for each one. The possibilities of fine tuning them are broad.
My .05c worth is go for it, I'm sure you'll be rapt with the Ohlins

[Robert Taylor]

Ok so I hope this does'nt annoy certain people but here goes....
Based on standard delivered from factory settings is one brand better than the other?
I currently have Traxxion AK-20's in and have the opportunity to get some Ohlins FGK 126 cartridges with superbike valve specs for a very very good price,I'm having trouble getting a good set up with the AK's,am tearing fronts fairly badly,I've tried just about everything to improve the wear but not getting anywhere,am happy with the handling though.
With whatever I get back on selling my AK's this makes the Ohlins an even better deal,only trouble is that "yes" they are privately imported.
I'm not trying to stir anyone up but being without sponsorship and on a very limited budget money does count,especially when the difference is into the 4 figure mark.

I hear what you are saying and will come back with a full reply that is totally BS free, cold hard facts as over the years I have dealt intensively with both products. Dont commit to them just yet as it needs to be established what springs they come with and if they have the current pistons fitted that we used with great success with Bugden, Stroud, Shirriffs, Jones, Cudlin, Charlett, Smart, Smith, Sadowski x 2, Fitzgerald, Williams and a whole host of other very happy customers. Point of fact we did a lot of development with these cartridges and the same specs have been forwarded to and are now being used by Giles, Coxell and Robbie in Oz.
Give me until tonight.

[Tony.OK]

I hear what you are saying and will come back with a full reply that is totally BS free, cold hard facts as over the years I have dealt intensively with both products. Dont commit to them just yet as it needs to be established what springs they come with and if they have the current pistons fitted that we used with great success with Bugden, Stroud, Shirriffs, Jones, Cudlin, Charlett, Smart, Smith, Sadowski x 2, Fitzgerald, Williams and a whole host of other very happy customers. Point of fact we did a lot of development with these cartridges and the same specs have been forwarded to and are now being used by Giles, Coxell and Robbie in Oz.
Give me until tonight.

Thanks for that Robert,if it helps they were ordered from Ohlins 2 weeks ago and will be sprung for my weight(9.5 or 10.0 spring,85kg rider no gear,06 1000rr).
I really don't want to tread on toes either,the AK's worked really well with my lighter wheels but now I've got the stock wheels back on I'm struggling to get it right.

[cowpoos]

Ok so I hope this does'nt annoy certain people but here goes....
Based on standard delivered from factory settings is one brand better than the other?
I currently have Traxxion AK-20's in and have the opportunity to get some Ohlins FGK 126 cartridges with superbike valve specs for a very very good price,I'm having trouble getting a good set up with the AK's,am tearing fronts fairly badly,I've tried just about everything to improve the wear but not getting anywhere,am happy with the handling though.
With whatever I get back on selling my AK's this makes the Ohlins an even better deal,only trouble is that "yes" they are privately imported.
I'm not trying to stir anyone up but being without sponsorship and on a very limited budget money does count,especially when the difference is into the 4 figure mark.

In all honstey..I think you have jumped the gun!!


the ak20 cartridges can be made to work really well...with a few exceptions...from what I hear and know from having them myself...those cartridges are capable of doing 1:06 lap times around manfield...with specific valving specs that robert taylor has developed...along with a ttx36 shock. on a bernard R1 last year at the nats..so those facts point toward the fact that the product is not the limiting factor? I'm not trying to put you down..just trying to enlighten the cost effectivness of your change..

and maybe enligjhten you to the fact that ur money may have been better spent??

[Robert Taylor]

In all honstey..I think you have jumped the gun!!


the ak20 cartridges can be made to work really well...with a few exceptions...from what I hear and know from having them myself...those cartridges are capable of doing 1:06 lap times around manfield...with specific valving specs that robert taylor has developed...along with a ttx36 shock. on a bernard R1 last year at the nats..so those facts point toward the fact that the product is not the limiting factor? I'm not trying to put you down..just trying to enlighten the cost effectivness of your change..

and maybe enligjhten you to the fact that ur money may have been better spent??

No he hasnt jumped the gun as the lap record was again lowered at Manfield again this year, by several who were using Ohlins cartridges. Bear in mind that (arguably ) the Superbikes are perhaps not quite as ''engine quick'' due to the more restricted engine rules. Also bear in mind that lap records were broken at every track by the Superbikes and again usually by at least 2 or 3 riders. As we were predominantly doing our cartridge setting changes/ development with these guys I think I can fairly state that much of this improvement in lap times came from the front.
A little bit of history and please forgive me if my dates are not quite accurate. Up until 97 /98 the ''dim dark ages'' were such that aftermarket suspension components were banned in production racing in NZ. ( I know someone is possibly going to bitch at me for saying that )It was recognised that the cocktail of ever increasing power, wider and stickier tyres, loadings and our bumpy tracks were overcoming the limitations of stock suspension, eating tyres and among myriad other factors was unfair to both lightweight and heavyweight riders etc etc etc.
At that stage we were usually just fitting appropriate springs with an oil viscosity change in the forks. Improvement being a term of relativity.
A little while later we were fitting aftermarket piston kits into the stock cartridges be they Ohlins, Race Tech or Traxxion.
Then a few years later Traxxion I think were the first to introduce an aftermarket complete drop in cartridge kit. I was told by the manufacturer that the settings were perfect and that I wouldnt need to do any revalving. That was unfortunately not the case so we worked at it laboriously until we had much improved settings, but as has now been clearly revealed by the performance of the Ohlins kits the performance of the AKs is lacking in comparison and ultimately limited.
Brutally, most manufacturers of high end aftermarket cartridges have embraced the 25mm size, whereas Traxxion has stuck with 20mm. In simple terms a 25mm piston is going to push more fluid for any given distance of movement and that is ( frankly ) a big bonus under brakes. But also the ''mid valve'' ( opposite side of rebound piston ) is a wave washer and checkplate type which is now far less common and frankly inferior if you want to build cartridges with great dynamic ride height control and brake dive control.
The moment the fork moves in compression the first thing that moves is that checkplate, which then stops against its travel limiter seat at full lift and bypasses oil from one side of the rebound piston to the other. The only thing that ( remotely ) modulates its rate of lift is a wave washer or two in tandem.
The system used in Ohlins cartridges ( and not exclusive to Ohlins ) is a bending shim stack midvalve that modulates the flow very well according to the fork velocity, the higher the velocity the more the lift, the less the velocity the less the lift. With a check plate set up it basically just stops at full lift and thats what youve got whether you need full lift or not. With the Ohlins system much much more emphasis for compression damping control is placed on that midvalve as it is the primary moving component. This means also that the compression base valve does less of that duty and can have a less aggressive setting, for these reasons the forks are not only remarkably controlled but also very responsive and plush.
Most of our work with these forks was spent making detail changes to the mid valve calibration to afford even better brake dive control, which in turn gave more liberty to run alternative rear shock rebound calibration.
Because the check plate midvalve ''lets the horse bolt'' straight away it then places an overemphasis on oil level ( and therefore secondary air spring compression ratio ) to control final bottoming out. WHAT REALLY PROVES that line of thinking is that when we recalibrated the Ohlins mid valves for more brake dive control we actually found we could lower the oil level in the forks. So, the best work is done ''straight away'' at the start of the stroke and not later on by trying to arrest the runaway horse with a higher than ideal oil level ( too progressive in air spring ) that will compromise ultimate grip.
And thats another issue, how is final bottoming out control effected? With Traxxion it is merely by oil level before there is metal to metal contact, usually the underside of the top cap striking the top of the inner tube. Ohlins still of course rely on oil level but it is a little less sensitive to same because of the aforementioned reasons. BUT they also have internal bottoming out rubbers timed to engage 3mm or more before there is metal to metal contact.
Another long term operational/ longevity problem we have found with Traxxion is that the seating surface for a washer below the cartridge top cap is precariously narrow. It doesnt take too many racing miles for that surface to flog out thereby losing some tension and seal on the floating o ring and bushing set up. This is fixable but has a lifespan. The rebound rod is also oversized, that means if a coarse pitch 10mm thread is required at the top of the rod ( common size for many caps ) the wall thickness becomes dangerously thin and many rods have been broken overseas.
In deference to my opening statement you may very well have jumped the gun in at least one respect. FGK126 are very early series Ohlins cartridges ( now out of production ) and the first ones used checkplate midvalves. It will still work better than your current cartridges but falls well short of what is now possible. POINT OF FACT the CBR is in relative terms the ''brake dive weight transference bike from hell'' which is why you are so attentive to this issue. Relative to this Hayden Fitzgerald used Traxxion in the front of his CBR last season and during testing at the start of this season. We then fitted FGK126 that we upgraded to the new pistons and continued with our ongoing upgrades. But straight away he was way happier than with the Traxxion. Tony Rees also guest rode an FGK equipped R1 at Pukekohe and remarked straight away just how great the front end was in comparison to the Traxxion stuff he had used previously.
Another advantage with the Ohlins is that they have longer top out springs to both minimise wheelies ( not standard in FGK126 ) that we developed right here in NZ with Sam Smith and Robbie Bugden, now adopted by the factory. This also counteracts the effect of main spring preload, making the fork a little more responsive at the top reaches of its stroke. That can pay a small but useful dividend in sidegrip when accelerating out of corners under power.
Buying goods cheaply offshore often occurs no saving at all. To bring it up to the specs we have successfully developed for on track and also road use it will need the latest series rebound / midvalve pistons allied with the valving that we have developed ( and successfully ''exported'' across to OZ and also to our viking friends ) I need to check the spec card but I am 99% sure the spring rate is also going to be too light.
Bumpy tracks and roads often are counter-intuitive to how you set up suspension. It is not uncommon to fit firmish spring rates to keep the bike high in its stroke in the compliant part of travel. Also to arrest sudden abrupt movements such as dive into slow corners and g outs etc. Fast flowing tracks and roads with no sudden chassis pitch movements can often run softer rates.
Remember that the components are just a tool and I dont know what the salesmen across the water have told you ? They have no idea of our local tracks / roads nor will they care. Just last week I repaired a set of Ohlins cartridges that had been bought in second hand from the States. They were still fitted with the standard .9 springs that we automatically change to a firmer rate here before sending to the individual customers. Clearly the Yankee pilot on board had lived on too much fast food as the bottom out it had experienced was so violent that it had internal and costly damage. TOO MUCH PRODUCT is sold by people who possess neither the infrastrucure / knowledge or sincerity to back it up properly. Its not as bad as buying a helmet or boots offshore to find they dont fit, at least this is upgradeable. I know I get maligned for saying such things but it is an irrefutable fact.
Yes, it is possible to win races using the Traxxion stuff but I will also say that given the settings we have come up with it takes a rider who is prepared to stick their kneck out a little further. In production superbike and 600cc sports production we spent most of our time and also upgraded settings in course for the non distributor team riders using our kit. ALL production superbike and 600cc sports production races were won using Ohlins cartridge kit and TTX36. At the recent Daytona 200 the first 3 bikes were Ohlins equipped, as were the first 3 600s.

Local backup is a very important part of the equation. I am always available to point out all the whys and wherefores beforehand.And that can save money!

[HDTboy]

But Robert, I can save a few hundred dollars if I parallel import the stuff.

[cowpoos]

No he hasnt jumped the gun as the lap record was again lowered at Manfield again this year, by several who were using Ohlins cartridges. Bear in mind that (arguably ) the Superbikes are perhaps not quite as ''engine quick''

what I was getting at Robert...is that Tony is not doing 1:06's no offence to him or your product...but In his case...his cartridge brand/type is probally not limiting his progress in terms of lap times at the moment...hadyen Fiz was still doing some seriously respectable lap times on his traxxion equiped cbr...with non ttx rear shock...there is most likely better settings to be found within his riding style and evolution or settings for his cartridges...smae goes for those that advocate new tyres...top top guys...the difference between new and used tyres is about .250-.400 of a second a lap at manfield...I mean...thats nothing!! most club level racers are not that consistant with brand new tyres let alone second hand ones...

My point was merely about where money is best spent...and within the speed range that tony would be lapping in at the moment...there will be a better comprimise in settings before a need for a product chage would be neccersary...not to mention...track craft...trying different tyre pressures...genral tracktime/race time...testing...hunderds of different things...argubly 3k spent on aussie superbike school would be a better investment than alot of things a racer could spend 3k on...

and in regaurds to the engines...the suzukis are making slitly more power this year...not much...and not sure about the other brands..

Like I said earilier..I'm not trying to put anyone down...just a sense of realisium was in order I felt...

[Tony.OK]

Maybe I should be a little clearer,the cartridges I'm looking at are brand new,will be sprung for me with 10.0 springs(same as I have in now) and will cost me $1600NZD landed,so more than a few hundred dollars saved.
Robert i appreciate all that you have said,and have been happy with both front and rear ends supplied by you.I used the FGK 126 product name because I went to the Ohlins website to get model #,and thats all they showed for my bike.

[Tony.OK]

what I was getting at Robert...is that Tony is not doing 1:06's no offence to him or your product...but In his case...his cartridge brand/type is probally not limiting his progress in terms of lap times at the moment...hadyen Fiz was still doing some seriously respectable lap times on his traxxion equiped cbr...with non ttx rear shock...there is most likely better settings to be found within his riding style and evolution or settings for his cartridges...smae goes for those that advocate new tyres...top top guys...the difference between new and used tyres is about .250-.400 of a second a lap at manfield...I mean...thats nothing!! most club level racers are not that consistant with brand new tyres let alone second hand ones...

My point was merely about where money is best spent...and within the speed range that tony would be lapping in at the moment...there will be a better comprimise in settings before a need for a product chage would be neccersary...not to mention...track craft...trying different tyre pressures...genral tracktime/race time...testing...hunderds of different things...argubly 3k spent on aussie superbike school would be a better investment than alot of things a racer could spend 3k on...

and in regaurds to the engines...the suzukis are making slitly more power this year...not much...and not sure about the other brands..

Like I said earilier..I'm not trying to put anyone down...just a sense of realisium was in order I felt...

Yeah I see your point Poos,maybe I'm still a bit high from winning my 1st 2 races yesterday(slip that in hehe).

Maybe I should have asked.......is one easier to set up?does one have a broader adjustment range than the other?Not being able to afford to get things re shimmed for every race,my thought was range of useful adjustment might be better with one than the other,meaning less technical servicing.
Maybe I'll just go to bed

[Robert Taylor]

But Robert, I can save a few hundred dollars if I parallel import the stuff.

And its not going to be set up the same, if you take it for service the going rate is ceratainly going to be charged and if there is a warranty issue ( however unlikely ) the local distributor is going to tell you to go back to source. Every dollar spent offshore with these parasites is also killing NZ business, FACT. Dont complain when we reach the point of no return, NZ already has a serious skills shortage and long lead times for QUALITY service because of this and myriad other compounding factors.............

[Robert Taylor]

what I was getting at Robert...is that Tony is not doing 1:06's no offence to him or your product...but In his case...his cartridge brand/type is probally not limiting his progress in terms of lap times at the moment...hadyen Fiz was still doing some seriously respectable lap times on his traxxion equiped cbr...with non ttx rear shock...there is most likely better settings to be found within his riding style and evolution or settings for his cartridges...smae goes for those that advocate new tyres...top top guys...the difference between new and used tyres is about .250-.400 of a second a lap at manfield...I mean...thats nothing!! most club level racers are not that consistant with brand new tyres let alone second hand ones...

My point was merely about where money is best spent...and within the speed range that tony would be lapping in at the moment...there will be a better comprimise in settings before a need for a product chage would be neccersary...not to mention...track craft...trying different tyre pressures...genral tracktime/race time...testing...hunderds of different things...argubly 3k spent on aussie superbike school would be a better investment than alot of things a racer could spend 3k on...

and in regaurds to the engines...the suzukis are making slitly more power this year...not much...and not sure about the other brands..

Like I said earilier..I'm not trying to put anyone down...just a sense of realisium was in order I felt...

Actually it IS limiting his ultimate lap times! We have proved it many times, the better the quality of kit the faster the rider can go and the benefit is even greater for novice riders as it gives them a greater level of confidence. But you miss my point, I have pointed out the shortcomings and longevity problems with the 20mm cartridges and the now largely outmoded check plate type midvalves. That very system is a compelling reason why there is difficulty in stopping the CBR in blowing through its stroke under brakes.
I have worked with both systems over the years and believe me we have taken a quantum leap with the 25mm system, allied to bending shim satck midvalve. If you want verification talk to Hayden Fitz directly....
For those that want to spend less we are currently developing 20mm settings for standard cartridges using bending shim stack midvalve pistons. This will not reach the performance levels of 25mm Ohlins / Race Tech but will outperform 20mm aftermarket cartridges for a significantly lower cost.
As Paul Thede said the best youve ridden is the best you know....

[Tony.OK]

I knew this would turn pear shaped

Ok at the mo my lap times at Taupo are low 1:36's with S/corser pro's not slicks
Motor is stock,want to get as fast as I can before going down that path
I know I can knock still more time off,am braking too early because of exc dive
Have played with oil levels,preload etc etc
I don't know where those times put me against experienced racers,but its getting quickish I think.

[Robert Taylor]

Maybe I should be a little clearer,the cartridges I'm looking at are brand new,will be sprung for me with 10.0 springs(same as I have in now) and will cost me $1600NZD landed,so more than a few hundred dollars saved.
Robert i appreciate all that you have said,and have been happy with both front and rear ends supplied by you.I used the FGK 126 product name because I went to the Ohlins website to get model #,and thats all they showed for my bike.

Okay, the spring rate supplied is NOT correct for those particular cartridges for our tracks, add $259.90. The rebound pistons and shimming is also not correct and not up to the settings we have refined here, add $800 for parts and labour. The internal top out springs will not be the longer type that we have found work better off our tight corner exits, add $60 Etc....
Improvement is a term of relativity and you may very well be happy but it will fall far short of what is possible and will therefore limit your ultimate lap times, moreover with that spring rate and set up you are likely to screw front tyres.
The local distributor supplies with all the latest specs dialed to our own track conditions! There is also a funny perception that the product needs reshimming for every track. In the case of the top riders we are there to help push the envelope for them all the time but also we have been ( largely through our own interest ) trying new settings all the time. This has a flow through effect to the non distributor riders who have purchased kit off us, ask Kyle Key about the upgrade we did to his forks at Pukekohe, at no charge.
If you had checked with me first I would have told you all this. Same answers, cold clinical technical truth.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah I see your point Poos,maybe I'm still a bit high from winning my 1st 2 races yesterday(slip that in hehe).

Maybe I should have asked.......is one easier to set up?does one have a broader adjustment range than the other?Not being able to afford to get things re shimmed for every race,my thought was range of useful adjustment might be better with one than the other,meaning less technical servicing.
Maybe I'll just go to bed

The Ohlins stuff is a lot easier to work on, actually does have a wider response range and the springs are an absolute delight to change and change quickly. I believe ( not arrogantly so ) that I am more than qualified to answer that given extensive experience with all systems.