Handling issues

[emaN]

Winding the rebound all the way in has on many bikes caused the rider to crash.

yep,but it's hard to describe what it'd 'feel like', so that's why I suggested it.
I'm guessing he'll be riding more cautious than normal during this 'trial & error' period, so...he'll be alright

BTW, have you much experience with RF shocks?

[MSTRS:Me]

Interesting. On one hand you are saying Ohlins are not expensive and on the other you are saying there is no cheap solution?

So are Ohlins cheap or not? Are you promoting them as a quality specialised product or a cheap solution for every bike?

Now I realise that you are the god of all things suspension and appreciate the you have the skills to back up what your reputation perceives you as but this thread is bordering on predatory. Not a good look.

I think he's saying that Ohlins are not as expensive as some would make them out to be. They are definitely not 'cheap', but to get handling that does exactly what you want does cost.
I also think that you are being a little unfair abot RT being predatory. A question was posed and RT answered it in the best way he could, along with an indication of what his fix might cost. We all know that is his business, and nobody seems to have a problem with him plying his trade on KB. Whether to use his service or not is always a personal choice. Some deem it vital, some make do.
Now...RT...can I have a cheap set of Ohlins for my endorsements?

[owner]

New Tyres Tyres Tyres echo echo echo

[cowboyz]

I think you are splitting hairs here... There are people out there saying that Ohlins shocks are a lot more expensive than what they actually are for many models, to serve their own ends. Now THAT ( in effect ) is PREDATORY.
The fact is I have custom built Ohlins shocks for these for on track and on road and had an original shock to model it off. When I had it I measured the spring rate and also dyno'd its damping character. I was shocked ( forgive the pun ) that a shock so abysmally bad could be built for a 650cc road bike. What may be uncomfortable to a number of readers is that I have cut right to the chase, the cheap and mid price offerings are not going to provide a significant improvement because they are built with the same mentality.
In the end event its the customers choice and ''improvement is a term of relativity.
We have for example also improved the suspension on a number of Ducati Monsters and in fact on many R1s, etc etc. In the end event its a choice between ( sorry ) ''wallowing in mediocity'' or making it as best as can be. I understand fully that it comes down to money and that it is not so readily available in this banana republic. You get as much as what you pay for.

ok. please excuse the lack of puns in my posts. I can hardly be expected to compete with that post......

I will start by saying that I have a few mates on the track and you have done a fair bit of work for them and they have nothing but fantastic things to say about your work, how you approached the problem, your fix, the price of the job and the after sales service. I am not sure that you are aware of exactly how far your reputation has travelled... or maybe you are.

However, what I was pointing out was you started by saying that the bike had cheap components (read: crap) and you can fix it for ~$2500. I am not going to get into if spending ~$2500 on suspension is worth it or not because that is a question for the owner, or at least the person paying the bill, to decide. My thoughts do wander into thinking that someone who wants a bike that will take advantage of a high quality shock like the ohlins would be better off with a 'higher quality' bike. The question of pigs ear was mentioned and I think the answer would be swaying towards yes.

I think he's saying that Ohlins are not as expensive as some would make them out to be. They are definitely not 'cheap', but to get handling that does exactly what you want does cost.
I also think that you are being a little unfair abot RT being predatory. A question was posed and RT answered it in the best way he could, along with an indication of what his fix might cost. We all know that is his business, and nobody seems to have a problem with him plying his trade on KB. Whether to use his service or not is always a personal choice. Some deem it vital, some make do.
Now...RT...can I have a cheap set of Ohlins for my endorsements?

Maybe it was just the way I was reading through the thread but it certainly looked like RT started by commenting on the current shock being cheap and then going striaght for an expensive fix, and then claiming that it is not that expensive.
At the end of the day, if the guy wants to spend $2500 on shocks for his bike then thats all good. I have no beef with a guy trying to make a buck, but it did seem a little off.

[CookMySock]

What state is the front tyre? Is it still the original?

These tyres are certainly not right. They are not the original. They look fine, with no obvious step. I heard a tale of woe today from the taupo track where someones' bridgestone battleaxxe just "let go". All he could do is shrug - no explanation.

New Tyres Tyres Tyres echo echo echo

Yes, I would dearly love to throw a set of Michelin Pilots at it.

Ok theres lots of good information there.

Right, how do I "measure up" this rear shock to find out what it is exactly ? If the stock item is complete junk, then it stands to reason ANYTHING I replace it with must be better. So what can I replace it with? I imagine there is a whole raft of aftermarket and second-hand stuff to put in there in its' place.

edit: will something like this fit in its' place ?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...817006.htm?p=6

edit2: 315mm between holes, measured on-the-bike, no rider.

Is there a part inside the front shocks I can swap out ? Or do I have to replace the whole unit ?

many thanks,
Steve

[Robert Taylor]

yep,but it's hard to describe what it'd 'feel like', so that's why I suggested it.
I'm guessing he'll be riding more cautious than normal during this 'trial & error' period, so...he'll be alright

BTW, have you much experience with RF shocks?

Yes, but being single tube the improvement that can be effected is limited. Oil and nitrogen capacity is very minimalist.

[Robert Taylor]

ok. please excuse the lack of puns in my posts. I can hardly be expected to compete with that post......

I will start by saying that I have a few mates on the track and you have done a fair bit of work for them and they have nothing but fantastic things to say about your work, how you approached the problem, your fix, the price of the job and the after sales service. I am not sure that you are aware of exactly how far your reputation has travelled... or maybe you are.

However, what I was pointing out was you started by saying that the bike had cheap components (read: crap) and you can fix it for ~$2500. I am not going to get into if spending ~$2500 on suspension is worth it or not because that is a question for the owner, or at least the person paying the bill, to decide. My thoughts do wander into thinking that someone who wants a bike that will take advantage of a high quality shock like the ohlins would be better off with a 'higher quality' bike. The question of pigs ear was mentioned and I think the answer would be swaying towards yes.



Maybe it was just the way I was reading through the thread but it certainly looked like RT started by commenting on the current shock being cheap and then going striaght for an expensive fix, and then claiming that it is not that expensive.
At the end of the day, if the guy wants to spend $2500 on shocks for his bike then thats all good. I have no beef with a guy trying to make a buck, but it did seem a little off.

In reality to custom build a shock and respec cartridges be it for a cheap bike or a more expensive bike is the same cost I.e same components, same amount of labour. Sometimes its more because the internal spec and components start from a lower base line meaning more components required. No free lunches here...

[Robert Taylor]

These tyres are certainly not right. They are not the original. They look fine, with no obvious step. I heard a tale of woe today from the taupo track where someones' bridgestone battleaxxe just "let go". All he could do is shrug - no explanation.

Yes, I would dearly love to throw a set of Michelin Pilots at it.

Ok theres lots of good information there.

Right, how do I "measure up" this rear shock to find out what it is exactly ? If the stock item is complete junk, then it stands to reason ANYTHING I replace it with must be better. So what can I replace it with? I imagine there is a whole raft of aftermarket and second-hand stuff to put in there in its' place.

edit: will something like this fit in its' place ?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...817006.htm?p=6

edit2: 315mm between holes, measured on-the-bike, no rider.

Is there a part inside the front shocks I can swap out ? Or do I have to replace the whole unit ?

many thanks,
Steve

Actually no there isnt a whole raft of options, aside from the ''one size fits all and works worse than average in all '' mentality. Its not just a matter of finding something that fits. The spring rate in that shock is very firm because there is no compression damping to speak of. And because the spring is so firm it also has a very aggressive and progressive rebound damping curve to control it. The very shape of the rebound curve suggests that it has a fixed orifice rebound piston with maybe a couple of check plates at best. This is a very cheap way to build a shock, you can tell by the dyno curve. The same ''accountancy mentality'' is used in dampers for low price cars.
When we built Ohlins dampers for these we had a proper compression damping curve that then allowed a significant reduction in spring rate, because it was no longer relying almost completely on spring rate to give decent dynamic ride height control. The reduction in spring rate then allowed a much less aggressive rebound damping curve. The difference in ride compliance, mechanical grip, ride height control, steering precision and tyre life is night and day.
As I stated previously you only get what you pay for. The unfortunate and cruel realities of life is that whilst we are ''basking'' in the ( as it turns out) short lived ''pleasures'' of ( especially ) cheap Chinese goods we turn a blind eye to the social cost in those countries. 6 day weeks with lots of compulsory overtime, bullying bosses, very meagre wages and dormitory like accomodation. ''Battery hens'' seems an appropriate comparison. AND, all of this nonsense is also effectively lowering our own living standards.
Maybe I get it in the neck about pricing, but that is because the perception has been distorted by this new and somewhat immoral industrial revolution that is going on. Swedish workers are appropriately paid ( as you expect to be! ) with a nice living environment.
When I hear the word quality with respect to many of these dodgy products coming out of the East I think why is that word not abolished, its now meaningless.

[nallac]

As I stated previously you only get what you pay for. The unfortunate and cruel realities of life is that whilst we are ''basking'' in the ( as it turns out) short lived ''pleasures'' of ( especially ) cheap Chinese goods we turn a blind eye to the social cost in those countries. 6 day weeks with lots of compulsory overtime, bullying bosses, very meagre wages and dormitory like accomodation. ''Battery hens'' seems an appropriate comparison. AND, all of this nonsense is also effectively lowering our own living standards.
Maybe I get it in the neck about pricing, but that is because the perception has been distorted by this new and somewhat immoral industrial revolution that is going on. Swedish workers are appropriately paid ( as you expect to be! ) with a nice living environment.
When I hear the word quality with respect to many of these dodgy products coming out of the East I think why is that word not abolished, its now meaningless.

Ain't that the truth, it costs for quality..........

[emaN]

Yes, but being single tube the improvement that can be effected is limited. Oil and nitrogen capacity is very minimalist.

thanks man...although not what i was hoping to hear.
I'll be in touch at some stage, 'cos it looks like i'm stuck with the RF for a while yet, so I might as well get her sorted.

[CookMySock]

good, so can I throw the rear shock away and slap some low-end aftermarket unit in its place ? How do I tell what will fit and what will not ? Surely this has got to be better than the OEM Hyosung one.

Can I change the innards in the front shocks for something a little more capable ? Can I change the spring in them or something ?

or not ?

DB

[CookMySock]

okey, I had the shop remove my rear shock and measure it up. The spring tension adjuster had sooo much weight on it, they had to remove the damn thing to make any adjustments.. It was set on 3 so we set it to 1. The bike seems to have the rear lower down now, and the steering is not so weavy and sensitive. It might be a bit softer, but I had a passenger so it was hard to tell, and I don't know what should have happened with the lower setting.

The mechanic reports that he has never seen such an almighty spring in all his life, and that there will be a lighter spring "around here somewhere" to try. I am not persuaded yet - I would rather see a Showa or something else aftermarket with some pedigree, but below about 500bucks worth.

It seems anything that will fit in there is on the cards to be MUCH MUCH better than the original hyosung one. So I'm on the lookout for something newish.

They also noted that there was lots of little hairline cracks in the front tyre - most likely from it sitting around unused - which makes sense.. I was warned any dew on the road will make this tyre quite slippery.

DB

[Robert Taylor]

okey, I had the shop remove my rear shock and measure it up. The spring tension adjuster had sooo much weight on it, they had to remove the damn thing to make any adjustments.. It was set on 3 so we set it to 1. The bike seems to have the rear lower down now, and the steering is not so weavy and sensitive. It might be a bit softer, but I had a passenger so it was hard to tell, and I don't know what should have happened with the lower setting.

The mechanic reports that he has never seen such an almighty spring in all his life, and that there will be a lighter spring "around here somewhere" to try. I am not persuaded yet - I would rather see a Showa or something else aftermarket with some pedigree, but below about 500bucks worth.

It seems anything that will fit in there is on the cards to be MUCH MUCH better than the original hyosung one. So I'm on the lookout for something newish.

They also noted that there was lots of little hairline cracks in the front tyre - most likely from it sitting around unused - which makes sense.. I was warned any dew on the road will make this tyre quite slippery.

DB

About 15 or 16 newtons from memory. You will not be able to puchase anything new ''with pedigree'' for less than $500.

[CookMySock]

You will not be able to puchase anything new ''with pedigree'' for less than $500.

agreed. There's a lot of non-rebuildable gear around in near-new condition, and a bit less older quality rebuildable gear as well, so I will have a rummage.

If I fit something and it was way too soft, well I will just hiff it on my mrs' GT250R.

DB

[BM-GS]

Lots of good stuff in here, but maybe I missed the point about the tyres. If they're worn, biin them & try some new ones. Fronts wear to a triangle and the rears wear square if you use them for commuting (and this isn't a race bike, going by the other comments). Different profiles, like worn tyres have, make the 2 ends f the bike fight each other, which can be entertaining when it isn't scary...

Then you have a serviceable bike, so service it. Check all the mechanical bits & bobs for tightness, looseness, general rightness and then try again. If things still aren't working satisfactorily, maybe you've outgrown the bike? The Hyosung is a budget bike and from what I it hear does damned good job, but it'll never be an R6, so maybe a better idea would be to buy a bike that starts off at a higher level. One of my old teachers called the process of persisting with trying to improve something which is obviously inadequate "polishing turds". No point in spending more on the polish than you have to!

There's no argument what high-spec suspenders can do for a bike, especially when the direct comparison is with the knackered old shite that needed replacing in the first place, but does a $6,000 bike need $1,000 forks? Or would a $10,000 bike be better, as it was all made to work together (a few years ago)? And would the parts on it be rebuildable?

Best of luck,

BM-GS (now a Z750)