Half-a-billion dollar "Treelord" settlement

[McJim]

Hell, some would say us jocks are still getting shafted. Time to bend over.

Assume the position Mr Scracha It's all for nothing if ya ain't got yer Freedom cobber as Mel says.

[Steam]

If I was living in the stone age and the Chinese bought me medicine, education, modern agriculture, industrialisation ... then I would welcome them

In 1840 Maori numbered about 200,000.
In 1896 Maori numbered 42,113.

Thanks Europeans! Welcome!

[sAsLEX]

In 1840 Maori numbered about 200,000.
In 1896 Maori numbered 42,113.

Thanks Europeans! Welcome!

And Moa one of their food sources numbered Zero......

[Ocean1]

In 1840 Maori numbered about 200,000.
In 1896 Maori numbered 42,113.

Thanks Europeans! Welcome!

Do you know why?

[Steam]

Do you know why?

I seem to remember 95% of those deaths were because of new and interesting European diseases they had no immunity to, the rest due to war.

[Ocean1]

I seem to remember 95% of those deaths were because of new and interesting European diseases they had no immunity to, the rest due to war.

Doubt it was 95% but there's no way to know accurately. However some of them also got guns, and we're talking about a feudal warrior society here...

Some other societies didn't survive contact with "foreigners” at all, and I’m not just talking about the more recent European expansion, it’s an old, old story. It’s also not my fault, nor anything anyone living should feel aggrieved about.

[Sanx]

In 1840 Maori numbered about 200,000.
In 1896 Maori numbered 42,113.

Thanks Europeans! Welcome!

In 1835, Moriori living on the Chatham Islands numbered 2000 or so. In 1865, Moriori numbered 101.

Thanks Maori! Welcome!

The point of this rather obvious comment is to point out that the Maori were happily doing to other races what they claimed the Europeans were doing to them. At the same time, as with everything they do now, they justified it at the time by saying the mass slaughter and enslavement was in keeping with their traditions and culture.

And unlike the decline of Maori, which you correctly assign to a combination of internecine feuding and disease, the decimation of the Moriori was almost entirely caused by their slaughter.

[Swoop]

And Moa one of their food sources numbered Zero......

It was then a very long wait for KFC to open in NZ.

[scumdog]

We'd be pissed. We'd still be pissed 150 years later. Hell, it's not even 150 years later, it was just in 1953 that the Maori Affairs Act was passed saying if Maori land was not occupied or being used then it was declared 'waste land' and taken by the government.

A lot of people learn about the injustices and go "Oh hell that's really bad. But it was all so long ago, let's just forgive and forget eh. It wasn't me, it was my great-grandfather."

That's really easy to say when you're on the top of the pile, and less easy to say if every day you see the grandchildren of thieves living on the land their grandfathers stole from you.

Steam, my people got shat on big-time by the English a few hundred years ago too in Scotland.

But you don't hear me bleating on and on and on about how the poms raped the cattle and stole the women etc etc.

And you don't hear me saying to th British Government "Pay me, pay me pay me" for hundreds of years....or worse still, accepting an agreed full and final payment and then letting the next generation leech off another few million from the country in payment.

Time to get over it.

You get invaded and lose a war? - bad luck, life sucks at the time but you get over it. (or should)

[Steam]

True, true. I'm a Scot too, hence my name Jamie McEwan.

But the Maori didn't get invaded or conquered, they got a signed and sealed agreement in return for letting Europeans in, that guaranteed the "exclusive and undisturbed possession of their Lands and Estates Forests Fisheries and other properties."

That agreement has been broken again and again, hence the Waitangi Tribunal.

Lots of people think the treaty should be scrapped, but it's the basis of relations between Maori and Europeans. If it gets scrapped then we really did conquer them, we just lied to get them to sign a fake treaty.

[sAsLEX]

True, true. I'm a Scot too, hence my name Jamie McEwan.

But the Maori didn't get invaded or conquered, they got a signed and sealed agreement in return for letting Europeans in, that guaranteed the "exclusive and undisturbed possession of their Lands and Estates Forests Fisheries and other properties."

That agreement has been broken again and again, hence the Waitangi Tribunal.

Lots of people think the treaty should be scrapped, but it's the basis of relations between Maori and Europeans. If it gets scrapped then we really did conquer them, we just lied to get them to sign a fake treaty.

And?

Then we would of treated them equitably compared to all other colonised nations.

We are unique with our treaty and look how well its working!

[scumdog]

True, true. I'm a Scot too, hence my name Jamie McEwan.

But the Maori didn't get invaded or conquered, they got a signed and sealed agreement in return for letting Europeans in, that guaranteed the "exclusive and undisturbed possession of their Lands and Estates Forests Fisheries and other properties."

That agreement has been broken again and again, hence the Waitangi Tribunal.

Lots of people think the treaty should be scrapped, but it's the basis of relations between Maori and Europeans. If it gets scrapped then we really did conquer them, we just lied to get them to sign a fake treaty.

The thing is: they never HAD to sign the Treaty - the 'invaders' could have just literally knocked them into extinction but they offered the Treaty.

Maybe it has not gone the way it should have, maybe the Maori HAVE been shafyted a bit.

But time to get over it, move on, it's 21st century.

I for one don't want to have to pay for crap that happened before I was born - and that I had nothing to do with.

[Steam]

True, I do concede the Europeans have do have a fair point.

It's going to be interesting how things work out over the next few decades.

[McJim]

But you don't hear me bleating on and on and on about how the poms raped the cattle and stole the women etc etc.

Stop bleating on and on about the Poms dude. It's not a good look. So they won Culloden and we lost. Get over it....Oh and Sanx....gie us ma oil back ya sassenach ye!

As an observer to the whole Waitangi remuneration thing it does seem to be heavily unpopular amongst many - including many Maori who feel that they won't benefit personally but will bear the brunt of non Maori bad feeling.

It's odd though - Maori were treated so much better by the Europeans than the Native Americans, the Central Americans, The Incas, The Native Australians the West Coast Africans.......in fact the list can go on and on and on. Seems grudges ARE hereditary...this explains the shit state of the world we live in eh? too many grudges. not enough Compo to go around.

[Hitcher]

I'm a Scot too, hence my name Jamie McEwan.

That's Hungarian if ever I heard one.