Electronic rear shock?

[FzerozeroT]

http://www.motorcycles.bmw.com.au/sc...lCategoryID=66

The suspension of the BMW K 1200 S is also extremely adaptable to ensure safe road contact. An innovation which is unique in the motorcycling world is responsible for this: ESA (Electronic Suspension Adjustment - optional). The rider can adjust both the damping of the front and rear suspension while riding as well as the spring pre-load when stationary with the engine on.

[Mental Trousers]

not for long. traditionally, that sort of thinking lasts precisely a week, before some smartass on the internet reverse engineers it, writes some software for Linux, and starts an online tuning community website with a download section.

Long may it continue in my opinion. It's about freedom - not who is right and who is wrong. Who cares if the software is bullshit, and the bike handles like crap - not everyone is going to do it, and factory firmware can be replaced in the blink of an eye, and you truly own the thing that you thought you owned.

DB

The family of the guy that went under the truck just after he used a firmware downloaded off the internet would care.

This isn't an operating system, or a web browser, or an email client, or office productivity software, or CAD software etc. It's about making informed decisions when it comes to adjusting potentially lethal weapons. There's a reason not everyone is a suspension engineer. They're analogous to Telco Network Engineers. Those guys are able to flash firmware as and where needed etc and there's widespread open source communities for that occupation, but you wouldn't let Joe Clown loose on Telecom's Junipers. Same difference with suspension.

Besides, as others have pointed out the motorcycle industry is conservative in the extreme. Electronic active suspension has been tried already and was rejected. Even the absolute top of the line bikes in MotoGP still use the good old, simple hydraulic dampers with 3 adjusters (occasionally more but just variations).

[Disco Dan]

Absolutely right, another thread by Disco Dan ( effectively ) reinforces what you have said. I for one am also in favour of personal freedom but not to the point that it affects the liberty of other people. So ''Joe misinformed'' adjusts his suspension into an ill handling and dangerous beast. He takes it out onto the road and it is wobbling so badly at speed that he wanders into the opposite side of the road and kills / maims an innocent family in a car.
If you could ever analyse it I bet the number of deaths and injuries caused by ill handling or unsafe motorcycles ( and cars ) would be enormous. Those that choose to remain naive absolutely do need to be protected from themselves.
Freedom comes at a price.

To delve into the unknown where adjustment can only really be tested by mounting the powerful motorbike and 'giving it a go' is asking for trouble.

Those that seek information and research what they are doing, increase their chances of success, but alas it is not 'fool' proof.

[Pixie]

whats a electronic active rear shock ?

In all the automotive engineering documents I have read,active refers to a system that physically drives the suspended wheel up and down to follow the road surface.
this is done with electro-hydraulic systems or in the case of the Bose system.

http://www.bose.com/controller?event...components.jsp

a purely electromagnetic regenerative suspension strut.

Electronic Damping control is not active suspension - that's the equivalent of having a little robot (not Robert ) twiddling your damper knobs as you ride along.

[Shaun]

One thing I have wanted to see on a shock for a few years now is ELECTRONIC RIDE HEIGHT ADJUSTER

The idea behind this for me was to be able to set your geometry to work best in the fast corners ( You make more time in the fast ones, as opposed to the slow ones) So when your bike is handling really well in the fast stuff, IT WILL BE DIFFICULT to change direction in Hairpins, Chicanes etc ( Unless in the money world, where tripple clamps and head angle can be changed to work best)

SO PUSH THE BOTTON, have a switch on the handle bars like an ECU control switch for fuel maps and timing etc, that has a pre set messurement of movement programmed into it to extend the shock where it mounts into the frame, and PRESTO, a bike that goes through fast and slow corners FAST

It would also be a very real advantage in conditions where it is trying to rain, you could load and unload the front and rear end as much as you the rider wanted to with weight ballance through the geometry

Well I have been called a dreamer before

[CookMySock]

One thing I have wanted to see on a shock for a few years now is ELECTRONIC RIDE HEIGHT ADJUSTER [...] Well I have been called a dreamer before

Not at all. This was a standard feature on the Citroen cars in the 1960s. It wasn't a short-lived fad either - it is still in use today on their modern cars, and the system is widely envied by many manufacturers. They weren't called a flying carpet for nothing.

Considering the base unit for bikes and the citroens' hydropneumatic suspension is a plain hydraulic ram, there is little or no reason why such a system could not be adapted to a bike. You will get laughed at for sure, but there will be no more comfortable or capable suspension system than that.

Since the system is fully hydraulic, it is perfectly trivial to move oil around and alter ride height. Yes, it needs a pump.

Build one.

DB

[Robert Taylor]

Not at all. This was a standard feature on the Citroen cars in the 1960s. It wasn't a short-lived fad either - it is still in use today on their modern cars, and the system is widely envied by many manufacturers. They weren't called a flying carpet for nothing.

Considering the base unit for bikes and the citroens' hydropneumatic suspension is a plain hydraulic ram, there is little or no reason why such a system could not be adapted to a bike. You will get laughed at for sure, but there will be no more comfortable or capable suspension system than that.

Since the system is fully hydraulic, it is perfectly trivial to move oil around and alter ride height. Yes, it needs a pump.

Build one.

DB

Yes but the very speed of ride height control change is nowhere near fast enough for what Shaun states he would like. In order that the hardware would not be bulky and pwer consuming in a motorcycle application the engineers would be faced with an enormous challenge. So very often its the application of that technology and the cost that are the determining factors, otherwise we would see more evidence of it already.

[jonbuoy]

Not at all. This was a standard feature on the Citroen cars in the 1960s. It wasn't a short-lived fad either - it is still in use today on their modern cars, and the system is widely envied by many manufacturers. They weren't called a flying carpet for nothing.

Considering the base unit for bikes and the citroens' hydropneumatic suspension is a plain hydraulic ram, there is little or no reason why such a system could not be adapted to a bike. You will get laughed at for sure, but there will be no more comfortable or capable suspension system than that.

Since the system is fully hydraulic, it is perfectly trivial to move oil around and alter ride height. Yes, it needs a pump.

Build one.

DB

Flying carpet- more like driving a hot air balloon - body goes one way chassis another. It was to handle the shitty French roads - from deep rutted cart tracks to smooth motorways. High tech isn't always better - Austin Minis used plain old rubber cones instead of springs - look how well they handled back in the day.

[Robert Taylor]

Im scared to now, YOU might reply

I wasnt referring to your posts as you very well know.

[CookMySock]

I fully accept that not everyone can afford top shelf suspension, that is exactly why we are initiating re-specing of standard oem suspension units to a high standard. [..more ohlins talk deleted..]
If anyone asks a straightforward question or two I am more than happy to answer them, if that can be avoided without stupid meaningless posts all the better!

We DONT HAVE a straight-forward question - we are newbs - we have no idea what we need - that is supposed to be the professionals job to establish that.

So why didn't you say about respeccing MY suspension instead of all this ohlins ohlins ohlins talk in my thread a few weeks ago ? I discovered elsewhere that I can probably change the spring in it and get the pre-load in-range !! shock horror! All I was left with was trolling trademe for ohlins stuff that was never going to fit.

DB

[Shaun]

In deffense of Robert here, ( If it is required) Some times Robert comes accross as Ohlin's is the only unit worth using ( But does agknoledge other quality product) WELL HE IS THE OIHLINS NZ MAN, and has spent a lot of time and money, growing with his product.

He can ( For some) come across very strong RE CRAP PRODUCT

I am sure these comments of his, come from pulling apart Standard units all the time, and looking at the engineering quality of the Standard units, compared to an Ohlins, which will aid his oppinion of there lack of quality.

Me and Robert have had our differences, BUT CONTINUE TO WORK TOGETHER IN OUR WAY

Robert is extremmely fussy with his product, be it Ohlins or standard or what ever, Don't knock him for saying what he thinks and believes, and some times, YES, he will miss a question from someone, or may forgett to allude to the fact there is another product availlable, REMEMBER, him being on here, is good for the riders, and what he does on here, is done in his own time, LOOK AT THE TIMES OF SOME OF HIS POSTS, After hours, he is passionate about this game, and is a very good buisness man

[Pussy]

In deffense of Robert here, ( If it is required) Some times Robert comes accross as Ohlin's is the only unit worth using ( But does agknoledge other quality product) WELL HE IS THE OIHLINS NZ MAN, and has spent a lot of time and money, growing with his product.

He can ( For some) come across very strong RE CRAP PRODUCT

I am sure these comments of his, come from pulling apart Standard units all the time, and looking at the engineering quality of the Standard units, compared to an Ohlins, which will aid his oppinion of there lack of quality.

Me and Robert have had our differences, BUT CONTINUE TO WORK TOGETHER IN OUR WAY

Robert is extremmely fussy with his product, be it Ohlins or standard or what ever, Don't knock him for saying what he thinks and believes, and some times, YES, he will miss a question from someone, or may forgett to allude to the fact there is another product availlable, REMEMBER, him being on here, is good for the riders, and what he does on here, is done in his own time, LOOK AT THE TIMES OF SOME OF HIS POSTS, After hours, he is passionate about this game, and is a very good buisness man

Well said, Shaun! I wonder if people do realise how much RT does for EVERYONE who is a motorcyclist, not just you race guns

[JimBob]

Homing in about your questioning re the need ( ? )for top quality suspension.....and this is not a tit for tat response, just a ''clinical'' analysis. You know those nasty abrupt bumps that on many bikes with oem suspension you actually avoid as much as possible, and you cannot adjust everything externally to allow for it? We actually rework a lot of suspension units and sell shocks so that you can delight in riding over such bumps.And lets face it we do have a high percentage of bumpy roads that ideally require suspension with great bump absorption qualities while maintaining excellent ride height control. Most of our customers are ordinary everyday road riders and not racers. They seek better chassis control and ride compliance.
Over the decades I have seen inside thousands upon thousands of shock absorbers and in reality its scary just how crude the suspension internals are in many machines. Some can be reworked to a very decent level of performance, within the constraints of what you can do with such stuff. If you start with a higher baseline ( high quality aftermarket ) you can improve to a yet higher level, which also does help everyday road riders in terms of chassis ride precision, ride complinace AND tyre life.
There is a disturbing new trend in sportbike cartridges of making sealed non servicable units and its going to take a little imagination to get round that whilst trying to maintain a cost ceiling.
Suspension internals are largely out of sight and out of mind to everyone but a suspension specialist that actually is involved with working right to the bare bones. In all fairness I can lay claim in that respect to being much more intimate than any specialist involved in just external setup. But also my point is its actually very difficult to relay to an end user just how plausible improvements can be until they are actually ridden on, hope that makes some sense.

Agree 100%
Where we disagree is the requirement or need for an upgrade.
Your point of view is from a suspension expert who knows that the majority of suspensions arent right and should be fixed.
I am coming from a motorcyclists view of basically if I dont have a problem why should I fix it? especially if it costs a lot of $$
My point is that for many if not most riders the problems they experience are not enough to make them WANT to upgrade. Granted a fair number of these people probably havent experienced good suspension so their terms of reference are a bit skewed, and I am sure if they rode a bike with decent suspension very few would want to go back.
You alluded to the real "problem" when you said suspension is largely out of sight out of mind.
Motorcyling over the last 20-25 years has changed from a transport option to a leisure/lifestyle/image/social thing. Someone mentioned before that you would get more bang for your buck by spending 2k on suspension rather than an exhaust. Couldnt agree more, but quite often you will be the only one who knows you have quality suspension (unless the spring is a bright colour like say yellow and you have some stickers) but everyone will see and hear your exhaust and realise that this guy knows his stuff. The true afficianadoes look at the name on the exhaust before deciding if this guy is a poser or the real deal.
The same image thing applies to suspension. I am sure a lot of people purchase Ohlins not because they actually NEED it but because it is the cool thing to have. Would you sell so many if the unit was basic silver or black and didnt come with stickers?
Having said all that I still think that the stock suspension on most bikes isnt too bad. The last thing any of the manufacturers wants is their bikes gettting the wobbles at 250k and crashing. So while they are built to a budget oem still has to work to an acceptable degree.
Not saying it cant be improved but for most people the need for improvement (from their point of view)may not be there.
So we can agree to disagree on this point.

BTW I dont think I was splitting hairs or being overly emotive. I made some points which people are free to rebut.
Different point of view, thats all it is.
cheers

[CookMySock]

and then there is the point of view of another (potential) customer, that he would like his bike a bit better while spending under a grand.

I like dealing with boffins who are only interested in perfection and stand their ground, but at some stage they have to speak to real people. I really enjoy trying to warp my mind around their ways and elevated thought processes where humanly possible, but veiled insults really put me off. I don't even like to ask their advice any more, in case they are inadvertantly rude to me again, which as their frustration rises, they are certainly going to be.

DB

[Robert Taylor]

and then there is the point of view of another (potential) customer, that he would like his bike a bit better while spending under a grand.

I like dealing with boffins who are only interested in perfection and stand their ground, but at some stage they have to speak to real people. I really enjoy trying to warp my mind around their ways and elevated thought processes where humanly possible, but veiled insults really put me off. I don't even like to ask their advice any more, in case they are inadvertantly rude to me again, which as their frustration rises, they are certainly going to be.

DB

And no-one else was rude? You may be able to find something for under 1k but is it going to work?