Fisher & Paykel - fuc-ing shocking

[Marmoot]

I LOL'ed.




Oh, were you serious?

btw yes, i was serious

[Sanx]

Interestingly, no one has questioned the moral aspects of F&Ps decision.

We are all familiar with the abuses and exploitation perpetuated by companies such as Nike (if you are not, read URGENTLY Naomi Klein's book 'No Logo' ).

Should we not, as Kiwis, feel some shame that a company as closely associated with NZ as F&P has elected to join such a sordid club?

Manufacturing overseas does not automatically equate to running a sweatshop. I would say that making such a comparison was naive but, given the poster, I'd say it was just being deliberately obtuse.

Yes, the workers there might get paid a buck a day, but if that's the going rate for that job in that locale, then it's fair. If they were paid the same as kiwi workers, then there wouldn't be any point in moving manufacturing and instead of being paid a buck a day, they'd have no job at all.

Now, they have written all that loyalty off. They are now just another brand of cheap Asian crap.

Mrs Ixion asked me tonight "When we replace the fridge (she has been angling about that for a while now), is there any reason now why we should buy Fisher and Paykel ?" . My answer, with which she concurred "None whatsoever, they are just another Asian brand of cheap and shoddy".

So now she is talking about Smeg. About which I know nothing, except that it sounds like a character from the Lord of the Rings. A year ago, the notion of buying a Smeg (whereever they are form) would not have crossed her mind. It would have been automaticaly F&P.

Again, manufacturing overseas does not automatically equate to cheap and shoddy. If you automatically class anything made in a developing country as such, then you automaitcally write off products by Toyota, BMW, Suzuki, Roche, Nestle (admittedly, not the best company to give as an example), Triumph, General Electric, Boeing, Apple, Sony, Toshiba, Sharp, Panasonic, Pioneer... And that's just companies that manufacture in China. Almost every high-tech electronic component on the market has something made in China, unless you go to extremely high-end hi-fi kit or something along those lines. Even brands that pride themselves on being made in their parent country (Arcam - the British hifi marque, or Sennheiser) utilise chinese-made componentry.

So to declare F&P "another Asian brand of cheap and shoddy" is simply disingenuous. And until you actually see the made-in-wherever products, pure speculation based on little more than outdated prejudice.

The brand recognition will doubtless still be there. But will it be recognised as a Kiwi company making Kiwi products for Kiwis or just another Asian cheapo manufacturer.

The company's kiwi. It's owned by Kiwis, head-quartered in NZ with R&D carried out here. And one of their more profitable sidelines -finance - also based here. Manufacturing in asia simply makes F&P a kiwi company that manufactures offshore, not an asian company.

F&P have now publically stated that their product will be made wherever they can get it made cheapest and the standard is whatever costs least.

No they did not. They stated that they were shifting manufacturing overseas in order to keep themselves competitive. Consider this; the minimum wage in China is about US$1 per hour. The minimum wage in NZ is $12 something an hour - so about US$9. Is the job performed by the slovenly surly pieces of shit I see working (barely) in NZ stores and fast food joints nine times better than the job done by their counterparts in China? Of course not. Reduced labour cost does not equate to reduced quality, provided the F&P procedures and quality control is adhered to, which you can be pretty certain they will do.

A company that is based in Thailand and Mexico and wherever the heck else they are going to certainly cannot claim to be a Kiwi company.

As stated above, F&P are based in New Zealand. They manufacture in THailand or Mexico or wherever. Ford manufacture all over the world, but they're still an American company, no?

She may be a beautiful sexy woman but I still blame Aunty Helen and her best buddy Michael the arrogant prick - Where the hell are our tax breaks.
Ireland turned it's economy around with the help of..wait for it, tax cuts.

Thailand have offered F&P eight years totally free of any tax! Just pause for a second and try and absorb that benefit. Bloody Labour have spent years telling private individuals and businesses that we don't deserve, or need tax cuts. And besides, with tax cuts how can Labour continue to promote welfare as the preferred way of life.
Right now the Labour party are singing out of tune poorly altered Kenny Rogers songs to celebrate 430 more beneficiaries as a victory.

I agree entirely (apart from Uncle Helen being a beautiful sexy woman, you sick bugger). If the government wasn't solely interested in having as many beneficiaries as possible in the country, so increasing the number of no-hope lazy fucks who'll all vote Labour, then they'd try to encourage manufacturing. The US does it, Australia does it - even the UK does it.

In NZ, just building a factory takes five years, four of which are spent getting negotiating with the local Iwi, preparing imapct statements, and all the other shite involved in getting resource consent. You get OSH stormtroopers all over you if you don't have enough signs up reminding staff to do stuff that should be bloody obvious. You've then got to give four weeks holiday for every worker, and if he turns out to be fucking useless, you can't simply get rid of the lazy arse, you have to go through a process that takes months, all of which time you're still paying him. And then you have to pay ACC levies, Kiwisaver, not to mention the other raft of expenses and procedural bullshit that has to be waded through in order to ensure compliance.

It's not all Labour's fault; you can blame those green communists too, but it's discouraging companies from growing, or setting up manufacturing facilities here. At the end of the day, NZ will simply become a timber, meat and dairy based economy.

[rainman]

btw yes, i was serious

S'alright, I'm sure you can get pills for that. Pray tell, which part of our high-tech IT industry (such as it is) cannot be replicated elsewhere?

I'd be interested to see our (NZ owned) top five most profitable IT-exporting companies (not profit-exporting local services shows) and their total number of employees. And IT export revenues and % of total exports, as compared to the real first world, even per capita. I will have to hit the stats site... but I'm not expecting that it's a big number, even in relative terms.

The knowledge economy is a crock.

[Marmoot]

S'alright, I'm sure you can get pills for that. Pray tell, which part of our high-tech IT industry (such as it is) cannot be replicated elsewhere?

IT consultancy, network infrastructure industry, network maintenance and engineering, high-end R&D. These kind of IT industries are still primarily held by developed (and relatively-developed) countries. Especially with network maintenance and engineering, industries would choose local partners instead of trusting someone halfway around the world that don't know the local situations.

I'd assume you were thinking of programming farm and 1st/2nd tier tech support? Aye, those have gone to India last year.

[rainman]

IT consultancy, network infrastructure industry, network maintenance and engineering, high-end R&D. These kind of IT industries are still primarily held by developed (and relatively-developed) countries. Especially with network maintenance and engineering, industries would choose local partners instead of trusting someone halfway around the world that don't know the local situations.

I'd assume you were thinking of programming farm and 1st/2nd tier tech support? Aye, those have gone to India last year.

Perhaps you are getting confused between "stuff we're currently managing to hang on to" and that "which cannot be replicated anywhere else", to quote you. Also, as you acknowledge in your response here, most of the consultancy and infrastructure stuff is domestic consumption, from local partners not exporters (and I know of what I speak, my company has had a number of attempts to export consulting services, even on a small scale it ain't easy - they don't "trust someone halfway around the world..." as you point out). And even if it's domestic consumption today, a lot of successful kiwi companies grow and get bought by, say, an aussie co, whereupon "local" takes on a whole new meaning and the NZ services evaporate. Been there, done that, too.

Back to the original topic, about how we should offshore "low value" manufacturing and keep "high value" IT etc, how does it help NZ's trade situation if I design a network (for example) for a local customer, sell them a bunch of Cisco kit, and implement and support it for them? Apart from the small bits of local money circulating from their customers to them and then to me (so I can send it overseas and buy a plasma), most of the moolah heads offshore, to buy a product we have zero input into. Which is my original point - we don't have a successful NZ IT export brand (I'm thinking of Cisco, Nokia, Microsuck, IBM, etc)... Who's been the biggest success lately? Marshal, maybe? That worked out well, didn't it?

And exporting's critical, if you love globalisation - because we import rather a lot, and unlike the US, people overseas aren't going to lend us money to subsidise us living beyond our means just because we're nice guys and gals. They did for the US, but they're the reserve currency of the world, and besides they have lots of guns. So the choice is: find high value shit to export, or stop importing.

On the high-end R&D score, I interviewed a chap recently who has an Engineering (Electronics) PhD, and is clearly a very smart dude indeed. Originally from overseas. He's wanting to retrain into IT because there's feck all opportunity in NZ for his skills. So much for the high value design work, eh?

[Marmoot]

hey it's totally up to you to believe what you want. But i've seen things like Virtual Rally technology (what's the actual name? I can't remember) being successful and sold to overseas companies (such as Rally organiser etc) to use, and things that they use in broadcasting the America's Cup online (I think it was Virtual Spectator?). Those are the industries that help NZ go forward.

Can't survive by thinking the only way forward is to keep digging coals and assembling fridges.

[rainman]

hey it's totally up to you to believe what you want.

Sadly, reality isn't that optional.

ICT sales were up 3.3% in 2007, comparable to CPI (2006 was up 7.9% so we're going backwards). Exports decreased 4.2% to $1.5B, and are a shade over 8% of the total NZ market. If I'm doing my sums right that's about 4% of total exports and 3.5% of total imports.

Only 9 OECD countries had a positive ICT trade balance in 2005, and they weren't NZ. We were second from the bottom. Only Aussie is worse. We're 22nd in the OECD for ICT trade volume. 22nd. Mexico, where they make our cheap whiteware now, cause they're not as smart as us and all, are 5th. Oh, and they also have a positive ICT trade balance.

But i've seen things like Virtual Rally technology (what's the actual name? I can't remember) being successful and sold to overseas companies (such as Rally organiser etc) to use, and things that they use in broadcasting the America's Cup online (I think it was Virtual Spectator?). Those are the industries that help NZ go forward.

Hey I didn't say it wouldn't couldn't happen, just that it was piddly small scale, smaller than our imports addiction (you could lose the total ICT exports three times over in the 2007 annual deficit). And it's under threat besides from the inconvenient fact that all those "lesser" economies seem to be doing just fine learning how to build the high value stuff all by themselves.

Can't survive by thinking the only way forward is to keep digging coals and assembling fridges.

No, probably not. But having your head up your arse isn't going to help either...

However much we love the kiwi battler meme, the ICT industry just isn't going to come from behind and save the day.

IT in NZ is toast.

It just hasn't figured that out yet.

[avgas]

hey it's totally up to you to believe what you want. But i've seen things like Virtual Rally technology (what's the actual name? I can't remember) being successful and sold to overseas companies (such as Rally organiser etc) to use, and things that they use in broadcasting the America's Cup online (I think it was Virtual Spectator?). Those are the industries that help NZ go forward.

Can't survive by thinking the only way forward is to keep digging coals and assembling fridges.

Just to re-enforce a point here - most of the high tech stuff developed in NZ the 'average joe' doesn't see. Even if F&P's case their healthcare market is HUGE and makes sales of washing machines in NZ look pathetic.
However i know this will become a pissing match i figure i will show you all the good thing NZ is currently leading in (tech wise):
GPS Nav - Navman
GPS Time Synchronization - TEKRON
Crystal Oscillators - Rakon
Substation Automation (installation and operation) - Vector..........
So its not all bad here.

[Morcs]

Well it has begun.

We have been instructed to let F&P take the mould tools off us to go to thailand.

This is on top of a load of their tools going to mexico last year.

[SixPackBack]

Just to re-enforce a point here - most of the high tech stuff developed in NZ the 'average joe' doesn't see. Even if F&P's case their healthcare market is HUGE and makes sales of washing machines in NZ look pathetic.
However i know this will become a pissing match i figure i will show you all the good thing NZ is currently leading in (tech wise):
GPS Nav - Navman
GPS Time Synchronization - TEKRON
Crystal Oscillators - Rakon
Substation Automation (installation and operation) - Vector..........
So its not all bad here.

Wellington Drive tech. are another sector leader

[rainman]

Just to completely overstate my point, in case there is any confusion:

- I am proud of the technology innovation we have in NZ
- We should have more of it
- The companies who are successful exporters are admirable and should be incented to do more, and hopefully inspire others to join them

BUT

- The scale of our ICT exports is pitifully small compared to our imports addiction - We run a nasty trade imbalance across the board and also in ICT
- It is a BIG ask to ramp up ICT to address this problem
- If we think we're special because of our colonial heritage or any other bullshit reason we are deluded - Asia and the other mid-tier economies are eating our lunch, and not just at the grunt jobs
- Our productivity is relatively low, and we are nothing special in a global context. In fact we have a disadvantage in shipping physical product because we're far away from global markets and fuel probably ain't getting cheaper (and we cost too much to be good at manufacturing, anyway).
- Our wages can't go down to match our competitors because the stuff we need to live (and a lot of stuff we don't need, but buy anyway) is shipped in from far away so is more expensive. Be a bad idea anyway.
- $1.5bn in broadband investment will be nice, but won't radically change our ICT balance of payments (probably just reduce productivity even more!)

We have few options but to live within our means, or face the consequences (short term, high interest rates, long term, who knows?).

[Marmoot]

- Our productivity is relatively low, and we are nothing special in a global context. In fact we have a disadvantage in shipping physical product because we're far away from global markets and fuel probably ain't getting cheaper (and we cost too much to be good at manufacturing, anyway).

Here is a very good point on why we cannot rely on basic manufacturing business.

Also, couple that with the local market base which is virtually a peanut (compare to China market at 1 billion people, US market, etc) which makes manufacturing business unable to rely on domestic consumption.

If a manufacturing business cannot rely on domestic consumption and also cost too much to export, then it is basically dead.

Carry on. Look for alternative economic sources, I'd say.
We're good at farming and exporting cows.
And apparently we're good at exporting kiwis as well. Maybe slavetrading has a future