Work Vs Dole

[Sanx]

I found work anywhere I could..

Yeah, Scummy went for a toilet-cleaning job to start with, but when they turned him down, he had to settle for being a cop... Sad state of affairs.

*duck*

...even I have a bloody job these days

And that simply does not compute.

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

1. To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
2. All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
3. Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
4. Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
5. No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
6. If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
7. After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.

[TimeOut]

Yeah, Scummy went for a toilet-cleaning job to start with, but when they turned him down, he had to settle for being a cop... Sad state of affairs.

*duck*



And that simply does not compute.

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

1. To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
2. All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
3. Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
4. Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
5. No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
6. If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
7. After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.

Wow you wanna stand for goverment I'd vote for ya.

You could add to the list, no hand-outs for more than two kids (you want more you pay not us)

[JimO]

Perhaps i should have worded it slightly differently, I receive $11.60 an hour in my pocket (before Tax), an additional SIX dollars an hour (or thereabouts) is paid to my employer (training organisation) by my seconding company (the one i turn up to and do work at).

So yes, some of the money is used to pay for my paperwork courses like you suggest, however i fail to understand how there are people working for my training organisation which is portrayed as a "non-profit" organisation are earning Six figure Salary's all from my wages.

I'm charged out at $120 an hour btw.

I would have been better off to sign into the apprenticeship Employed by My Workplace with the training organization supervising my study.
That leaves the Business i work for to cover my course costs and i still receive a decent wage, Ie cutting out the middleman.

what do you do to be charged out at $120 a hr as a apprentice

[Mully]

what do you do to be charged out at $120 a hr as a apprentice

Well, the technical term is:

Bow-chicka-bow-wow

[Motig]

Geez I'm glad you lot arn't running the country! I used to have similar opinions about people on the dole then found myself made redundant, took 2 yrs till I finally managed to get another job and it wasn't because I wasn't trying. You suddenly discover that all those skills you thought you had are worthless and that ageism contrary to what the spin doctors say is a factor. Little things like getting a rejection slip a week before the job closes become very demoralising. And where do you people get the big money from the dole from $238 a week was all we got (wife,2 kids) So a lot of you before you start running benes down need to realise you could be thankful for the dole one day.I never dreamed I would ever be on it. That said yes there are bludgers out there and big families on the dole piss me of too. Just dont lump everybody in together. Marvellous isn't it that dole period was several years ago but I still seem to take it personally must

[GSVR]

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

1. To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
2. All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
3. Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
4. Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
5. No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
6. If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
7. After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.

Could be a good idea. Even if it fails it will create several thousand more jobs with administration ( I'm after a govt job where I have internet access for research purposes). Of course you'd need to run it by a few consultants first but that should only cost around 10 million max.

[Disco Dan]

Geez I'm glad you lot arn't running the country! I used to have similar opinions about people on the dole then found myself made redundant, took 2 yrs till I finally managed to get another job and it wasn't because I wasn't trying. You suddenly discover that all those skills you thought you had are worthless and that ageism contrary to what the spin doctors say is a factor. Little things like getting a rejection slip a week before the job closes become very demoralising. And where do you people get the big money from the dole from $238 a week was all we got (wife,2 kids) So a lot of you before you start running benes down need to realise you could be thankful for the dole one day.I never dreamed I would ever be on it. That said yes there are bludgers out there and big families on the dole piss me of too. Just dont lump everybody in together. Marvellous isn't it that dole period was several years ago but I still seem to take it personally must

http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/get...elp/index.html

You would be very surprised how easy it is to 'spin' your case to increase your weekly amounts.

[Howie]

Work vs The Dole.


Now first off, dont get me wrong I am not trying to make a decision here!

Scenarios:

Person XY earns $700 per week then quits and goes on benefit. This person then gets (because of a child) about the same amount per week from the government.

Person YX earns enough to cover expenses with only a couple of hundred to spare each week. This person goes on the social and then gets rent paid by government and pretty much sits on a about $100 per week.

Where is the incentive to work?




Unless your in a high paying job, there is not a lot holding low income people into employment is there!



Now my job is not exactly 'high paid' but it is adequate for my basic requirements for living, although prospects for future growth and 'moving up the ladder' is about nil. Unless of course I go back to University, which costs money.. which I could not afford. I could actually get more money per week as a student on the benefit than working part time while studying... now that is wrong.

now some of you may say $700 scenario is bollocks, but I know that person and she is able to maintain a $300p/w rental in a very good suburb of the shore while living a very nice lifestyle. All taxpayer funded.

Interesting Scenario’s these


The first one (person XY)reads as a Single parent deciding if it is best to keep working, or take a minor drop in money, and spend more time on parenting, Which is different to going on the Dole.
As someone who ended up in that very position about 7 years ago. I know that it is a hard decision to make. A lot of outside factors can influence it like, Is the child school age or pre school? can you readily get time off work when a child is sick? can you get time off during school holidays? well you get paid for the time off? Can you have any flexibility in the hours you work to accommodate your responsibilities to your child, children? How much is before/ after school care costing you? Do you have supportive Family, Friends close by that can help out with responsibilities?

In my situation I had 2 primary school age children, I chose to keep working because I had an understanding Manager who let me start and finish work at a different times to the standard ones. I was given flexibility to get time off when I needed it, and make the time up when I could. I had supportive people around me that could help out at times. Even with all the above it was still a close call to keep working as after I paid for child care, I worked out that I was working for about $20 a week more than if I was on a benefit, this was because of the costs of child care, and earning too much to get any subsidy on child care. So you really have to weigh up the time parenting verses the showing your child/children the "you work for a living choice" and decide which is the best way to go. I know that if one of my children had been pre-school age I would have gone on a benefit. I know if I hadn’t been able to negotiate for the flexibility at work I would have gone on a benefit.
The interesting thing is though if I hadn’t kept working, I wouldn’t have come across the opportunity to start my own Business, and change my financial circumstances for the better.

The Second scenario ( Person YX) Why is he making that choice: Because he/she wants to be Lazy? Because he/she can’t see a career path in their current position? Because their Current Job doesn’t, hold any interest for him? Because he can under our current social system? Because he/she believes the world owes him a living Why?

Now your question about going back to uni or not. That is your personal choice, I know people that have gone back to Uni at the age of 40 and finished degrees while working full time and raising young families. They are now living quite comfortably but paid a price to achieve that. So that is an option you need to look at and decide which is the path you want to take. Can you do some of your uni courses part time/ by correspondence, well your current Employer subsidise part time study with paid / unpaid time off, or payment of course fees? These could all be options to look at

Where does the incentive to work come from when on a low income is an interesting question, I find it comes back to having self worth, earning your own way in life, contributing to society, all those old values that used to be taught along with what your rights are.

[Disco Dan]

Interesting Scenario’s these


The first one (person XY)reads as a Single parent deciding if it is best to keep working, or take a minor drop in money, and spend more time on parenting, Which is different to going on the Dole.
As someone who ended up in that very position about 7 years ago. I know that it is a hard decision to make. A lot of outside factors can influence it like, Is the child school age or pre school? can you readily get time off work when a child is sick? can you get time off during school holidays? well you get paid for the time off? Can you have any flexibility in the hours you work to accommodate your responsibilities to your child, children? How much is before/ after school care costing you? Do you have supportive Family, Friends close by that can help out with responsibilities?

In my situation I had 2 primary school age children, I chose to keep working because I had an understanding Manager who let me start and finish work at a different times to the standard ones. I was given flexibility to get time off when I needed it, and make the time up when I could. I had supportive people around me that could help out at times. Even with all the above it was still a close call to keep working as after I paid for child care, I worked out that I was working for about $20 a week more than if I was on a benefit, this was because of the costs of child care, and earning too much to get any subsidy on child care. So you really have to weigh up the time parenting verses the showing your child/children the "you work for a living choice" and decide which is the best way to go. I know that if one of my children had been pre-school age I would have gone on a benefit. I know if I hadn’t been able to negotiate for the flexibility at work I would have gone on a benefit.
The interesting thing is though if I hadn’t kept working, I wouldn’t have come across the opportunity to start my own Business, and change my financial circumstances for the better.

The Second scenario ( Person YX) Why is he making that choice: Because he/she wants to be Lazy? Because he/she can’t see a career path in their current position? Because their Current Job doesn’t, hold any interest for him? Because he can under our current social system? Because he/she believes the world owes him a living Why?

Now your question about going back to uni or not. That is your personal choice, I know people that have gone back to Uni at the age of 40 and finished degrees while working full time and raising young families. They are now living quite comfortably but paid a price to achieve that. So that is an option you need to look at and decide which is the path you want to take. Can you do some of your uni courses part time/ by correspondence, well your current Employer subsidise part time study with paid / unpaid time off, or payment of course fees? These could all be options to look at

Where does the incentive to work come from when on a low income is an interesting question, I find it comes back to having self worth, earning your own way in life, contributing to society, all those old values that used to be taught along with what your rights are.

You hit the nail there - values that are no longer taught in schools.

The second scenario has been taken from an ex client, whom admitidly was able to get various 'extras' because of a mental illness. But that person and in most cases that I have seen, was more than able and competent to work - the issue is 9/10 a motivation mixed in with a feeling that they have a right to get it because of their illness. Instead of these feelings of 'self worth' - that was stripped from them throughout the course of their path through the mental health system.

This thread is not a personal thing, I am in full time employment and looking at going back to uni at some point. How and when is yet to be decided.

[Finn]

Oh chortle chortle

...even I have a bloody job these days

Yeah but your case was very deserving. I'm all for a safety net for people in genuine need put this Government has turned it into a vote catching trawling net scooping up all the bottom feeders. Hell, even I was raised on welfare because of a very sick mother.

[Beemer]

I must confess I get a bit pissed off to hear of people earning way more than me for doing sweet FA. I am self-employed so if I get sick, I can't work, plus from early December to late February I usually have very little income due to the fact most of my clients close down over Christmas. I once went to WINZ to see if they had any part-time jobs to give me a little money each week but was told I could not apply for any of them because I was not registered as unemployed. I can't legally register as unemployed as my husband is in fulltime employment so despite being pretty low on money at the time, there was nothing they could or would do to help me. Of course if I had a dodgy back and someone to sign my medical certificate or I had a couple of kids from one-night-stands, I'd be sweet! But at least I don't feel guilty for being paid to do nothing!

[speights_bud]

what do you do to be charged out at $120 a hr as a apprentice

Custom machining and Rack Generating Gears/splines from scratch for that particular rate, so basically any shape gear, spline, pulley/cam belt, Helical or straight cut, imperial or metric.

Its a specific charge out rate for this kind of work. and it can vary depending on the job, But you definatly get what you pay for. It's a part of business that i probably shouldn't be discussing too much on a public forum.

I've been thinking about the whole job situation over the last day or two, I go to work because i love what i do and to me thats whats rewarding, perhaps i can whinge and moan about wages but at least i've got something to look forward to . I'm Learning a trade that i'll have forever and not growing a debt or loan. So its all worth it really. The Benefit is a great idea for someone to fallback on if everything goes up in smoke, but its easily abused by some, which i highly disagree with.

[Dilligaf]

[*]All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.[/LIST]

You may be interested to know that a lot actually has been done on this in the past year or so. Long term sickness beneficiaries have been assessed by government chosen doctors and doctors who have a high rate of beneficiary sign off have come under close scrutiny.
It is actually getting harder to be a sickness beneficiary if you are not actually sick.

[doc]

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

1. To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
2. All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
3. Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
4. Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
5. No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
6. If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
7. After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.

Maybe you should experience what you propose, for 12 months and then coment how it felt. An afluent society should have a concience. I dont believe that all beneficeries are ripping off the system. I think it is also a misconception that its easy on the benefit for a solo parent. If they need anything Winz just gives it to them.

My disgust with people that abuse my tax money lies more with those that decide how it is spent.

[skidMark]

Yeah, Scummy went for a toilet-cleaning job to start with, but when they turned him down, he had to settle for being a cop... Sad state of affairs.

*duck*



And that simply does not compute.

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

1. To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
2. All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
3. Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
4. Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
5. No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
6. If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
7. After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.

Ok, all the vouchers is sweet, mint.

But $25 discretionary money?

Mate i get $160 pw.

$120 on rent.

Leaves $40 for food. Which is easy spent.

This then leaving nothing for clothes, or nice items of any kind.

It's not a nice way to live. I have had to sell everything i bought from when last working to actually get by.