the "trust" factor when cornering

**Lee Rusty** · 26th August 2003, 00:17

we have now established email contact - it is hard when people dont tell you who they are to start with.

As to countersteering the explaination above is correct but I might be able to make it easier to under stand - I am trying to make an invisable force visable if you know what I mean.

Think of an ice cream cone. it has a big end and a small end - lay it flat on a table and push the big end - It does not roll straight
it rolls big end around the small end. Right.

Now think of M/c tyre.

A motorcycle tyre is not flat in section it is half round and the diameter of a 19 inch tyre is from centre to widest point.

If the centre of the tyre is 19 in (or 17, 18, or whatever) by pushing left on bars it moves a fraction of an inch off the centre of the tyre and the widest point - 19in rolls around the 18.75inch (or whatever) and thus turns tyre to the Left and starts the lean

But really that is only the basic description of the physical action.
It is also tied critically to rider vision. Drop me an email this is a subject that is easier to explain with a M/c. It doesnt take long to get a grasp of it.

**Lee Rusty** · 26th August 2003, 00:31

ALso would like to know how your bike is set up - tyre pressures
can be critical, as well as just the wear on your tyres. Not to mention suspension settings etc.

But in my experiance nearly always the rider can make the greatest improvement. If you get him or her right then the adjustments can be made with confidence. The adjustments to the bike won't cover rider inexperiance.

**What?** · 26th August 2003, 06:52

True. Wkid went from Really Bad Rider to Moto GP Rider in one day!!

BTW Wkid, that was a nice, concise description of gyroscopic precession and it's effect on motorcycle steering. (but can ya powersteer? Ha?)

**wkid_one** · 26th August 2003, 08:32

In all honesty - I am struggling right now with the turning prowess of the new bike - compared with the VTR...my god.....kinda offputting - but nice - it feels like powersteering

**Duke of Rogan** · 26th August 2003, 13:03

Originally posted by Lee Rusty
ALso would like to know how your bike is set up - tyre pressures
can be critical, as well as just the wear on your tyres. Not to mention suspension settings etc.

But in my experiance nearly always the rider can make the greatest improvement. If you get him or her right then the adjustments can be made with confidence. The adjustments to the bike won't cover rider inexperiance.

I'll get in touch with you to organise a chat

I've only had this bike a few months and havent touched the suspension.
although front shocks just got new seals and fluid, not sure if adjustable though. The setup feels pretty good, but then I'm no expert....
Air pressure is set to manufactures recommendations of 32PSI front and 35PSI rear (Dragon Evo tyres)

I have attempted a string line wheel alignment a couple of times, but have only just suss'ed how to do this properly (I think)

**bluninja** · 26th August 2003, 13:39

Countersteering...Lee, that's a can of worms you've opened. I like your explanation with the cone for how you create the cornering thrust, but my belief (back to religion so soon) is that as you turn the bars, the momentum of the bike pushes the bike over the front tyre, inducing the lean. Just turning the front wheel should not cause the tyre contact patch to move sideways (doesn't when the bike is stationary). It makes me marvel at the qualities of these black rubber hoops we put on our bikes. Not only keeping us shiny side up, but generating so much sideways thrust.

For me the 'trust' factor when cornering is more about who's cutting across a right hand corner into my path. If on the road I feel I'm pushing my own envelope, then either I'm riding too fast, or I'm looking in the wrong place (ie just in front of my bike at the road).

TTFN

**Lee Rusty** · 26th August 2003, 13:52

I did qualify what I said with this statement.......

I might be able to make it easier to under stand - I am trying to make an invisable force visable if you know what I mean.

it is difficult to get a handle on unless you visualize it

CS can be demonstrated by holding a bicycle wheel by the axle with arms straight in front at shoulder level and have someone spin the wheel. try to turn it one way and it will fight back and turn the other. - arms are same principle as forks

It is the hardest thing to explain to people - and I have given my explaination as an easy way to visualize it

To Duke - going on what you said about your bike set up I think that what you are looking for is in you and easy to put right - if I am right maybe an hour but I have to see you ride.

Drop me an email.

**Kwaka-Kid** · 26th August 2003, 13:59

whoa, so techhy, the way i get it thru my head sounds as if its the same as simons.

I am going 100kmph in staight line.. then i turn wheel to face left... what does the momentum of the bike do? all that energy/weight pushing forward nowpushs (in my head) against steering head/front wheel and "falls" the bike right... also look at as when u turn the front wheel to face left.. i imagine a circle i am making.. if it was drawn from birds eye view on piece of paper... and centrafugal force makes it want to go outwards.. but the tyres at the bottom of the bike are like stuck to ground(lets say fixed) so the bike then pivots on the 2 tyre patchs, thereby throwing the top of the bike right

i dont know if any of that made sense, i have been sniffing fibreglass resin and gel coat and mekp etc.. well must shoot and keep fibreglassing the rearailpiece to fit better and cover my Tied-on-by-braising-wire solinoid

hehehe. cyas!

**Lee Rusty** · 26th August 2003, 14:02

pushing bars when stationary does not make a difference - but when moving at 30kph tyre only needs to go fractionally off line to alter contact patch and turn in, once turning in it is like a screw.

But bear in mind I was using the example of trying to make an invisable force visable.

It is not what you can see it is what you think.

It is a can of worms I didnt want to open - I tried to ignore the first question, not for any other reason than it is hard to explain in the written form - much easier to explain when a bike is at hand.

It is one of those things you don't really have to understand why it works - just that it works .

**Lee Rusty** · 26th August 2003, 14:27

Tetchy - who's bloody tetchy

**bluninja** · 26th August 2003, 15:46

Lee, I agree that being able to countersteer is more important than knowing why. It's clear that I create different pictures to define countersteering...and I'm pedantic at times.

I'm now going to leave the can of worms as it is.

KK, tsk tsk

**Lee Rusty** · 26th August 2003, 17:16

and so shall I

**Motu** · 26th August 2003, 18:25

I'm not going to get caught up in this one again either - we are dealing with more than one natural force here,which is why we get into arguments,all theories seem to apply.Ain't bikes neat?

Lee,as a sidecar rider - have you ever put an experianced rider on a hack?...the bike leans out,so they keep counter steering right to pick it up,funny to watch,but don't laugh if it's your wife.

Also,have you ridden that abortion of a farm sidecar with the telescopic top links? Riding with the top links loose shows how powerfull these forces are - it's a real knife edge to stay upright - the bike would flip over and dump you on the ground!

We better be carefull here - a certain someone is likely to start a sidecar forum if we don't shut up.

**Lee Rusty** · 26th August 2003, 18:59

last rider I saw attempt to ride an outfit withour taking notice of what he was told wound up in a tree about 5 ft off the ground with the outfit wrapped around a letterbox.

talk about larf - it is a real art.

A sidecar forum - not a bad idea but I think we might be the ony ones on it - or are there any other outfit/hack/chair riders out there.