Go Labour!!!

[Hinny]

It is very nice to see the continuing ignorance of public opinion. The gubbinment is there to serve the people, not ignore any suggestion made.

Governments are not there to give the people what they want they are there to give the people what they need.
Public opinion is formed by exposure to, and influence by, the media. Perhaps that is why it is ignorant and should be ignored. Imagine public policy being determined by Fox News.

'All the Hollow men can do is holler'. There seems to be a lack of memory or denial of statistics from a great number of posters here. What is undeniable is the fact that the reign of conservative govts. in this country has coincided/resulted in periods of recession. Nat. party sympathisers may argue that Labour govts. have just been lucky in getting elected at a time of turnaround or cyclical change. I think we should stick with lucky parties. A masochist I am not. I have experienced too many periods of recession under Nat govts. and don't want to do it again.

And as for the suggestion we need another Rob Muldoon. FFS. Where's your sense of history?

If the railways were run so efficiently by private enterprise why do they need so much money spent to get them up to standard?

[Swoop]

Governments are not there to give the people what they want they are there to give the people what they need.

Bollocks. Any MP is elected to represent his/her electorate and the people within it. The people voted for that person, to do that specific job. The media [should] have fuck all to do with it (if we are honest) and the focus of the MP comes from the public.

And as for the suggestion we need another Rob Muldoon. FFS. Where's your sense of history?

THAT FUCKWIT?? He was a total and complete cunt who fucked this country over. Please point out where I have said we need rob muldoon. If I find out where his grave is, I will be taking a piss on it.

If the railways were run so efficiently by private enterprise why do they need so much money spent to get them up to standard?

Exactly. Only a bunch of retards would have bought a lemon at an incredibly high price. One more strike against cullen and the looney labourite sect.

[Hitcher]

Bollocks. Any MP is elected to represent his/her electorate and the people within it. The people voted for that person, to do that specific job. The media [should] have fuck all to do with it (if we are honest) and the focus of the MP comes from the public.

Bwuahahahahahahahaha! Ha!

Electorate MPs are appointed by their political parties and allocated to electorates at that party's whim. They are in Parliament to do what their party's whips instruct. The people did not vote for that person. They voted for a party with that person's name next to it.

And let's please not forget the tyranny that is list MPs. Elected by nobody, accountable to nobody. Even worse in the case of the so-called Green Party, where a whole party's-worth of MPs, elected by nobody and accountable to nobody, has significant leverage on legislation that shapes the future of our feeble nation.

Never forget that we need the media to ask hard questions and subject to some form of scrutiny or ridicule the efforts of some of these certifiable nut-jobs who pretend to be our elected leaders. Without them, who else is going to hold politicians to account?

[Swoop]

Never forget that we need the media to ask hard questions and subject to some form of scrutiny or ridicule the efforts of some of these certifiable nut-jobs who pretend to be our elected leaders. Without them, who else is going to hold politicians to account?

Definately required. There isn't any accountability to the electorate and the voters who put them into parliament, so the "media" are the only voice they listen to.

It would be nice if that wasn't needed and they did as the electorate told them to do.

[Skyryder]

Governments are not there to give the people what they want they are there to give the people what they need.
Public opinion is formed by exposure to, and influence by, the media. Perhaps that is why it is ignorant and should be ignored. Imagine public policy being determined by Fox News.

'All the Hollow men can do is holler'. There seems to be a lack of memory or denial of statistics from a great number of posters here. What is undeniable is the fact that the reign of conservative govts. in this country has coincided/resulted in periods of recession. Nat. party sympathisers may argue that Labour govts. have just been lucky in getting elected at a time of turnaround or cyclical change. I think we should stick with lucky parties. A masochist I am not. I have experienced too many periods of recession under Nat govts. and don't want to do it again.

And as for the suggestion we need another Rob Muldoon. FFS. Where's your sense of history?

If the railways were run so efficiently by private enterprise why do they need so much money spent to get them up to standard?

Good points. I have yet to see one of the reforms that work for the benifit of the general public. Health systems a mess, banks are all foreing owned with the exception of the Kiwi Bank. Power cuts are on the cards due to bad planning, roads are a mess with congestion.

We have an abundance of geothermal energy but Rodger Douglas in his wisdom got rid of the MOW and now there is no NZ expertise for New Zealand to develop this natural energy. We ban coal in NZ yet sell it by the boatload to Japan. Smart?

No doubt Labour has made some dumb mistakes but the Nats; all Kiwis can see is tax cuts, and Key is going to 'borrow' money for that. Now what sort of dumb move is that??

Imagine this man tree years down the track. You'll be paying road tolls within a year so that Key can put a price tag for privatisation of some highways to sell off on his second term. You do not have to be rocket scientist to figure out where they will be.





Skyryder

[Hinny]

banks are all foreing owned with the exception of the Kiwi Bank.

And TSB and Southland Savings Bank. What a fantastic job they do with their community support. So much better than shipping profits overseas.

roads are a mess with congestion.

Roads are a mess with road works everywhere. Apparently there is no more capacity available to do any more roadworks than is currently underway.
One good point for Nat there. They would no doubt return to their old ways and we wouldn't have all these bloody roadworks going on.

the Nats; all Kiwis can see is tax cuts

The Nats only had two policies finalised and published on their website in the final week of the last election and one of those two - forestry - they publicly argued over and issued three different opinions on it in the last week!
With the New Zealand public all they needed was one policy to nearly get them elected. They didn't even need an elected politician to lead them let alone a team to back him.

Almost by definition Conservative governments are not the ones to trot out new policy for the new age. They are condemned to follow the same old philosophy that has so comprehensively failed in the past. They just don't seem to be able to grasp that.
The thought of our children going off to kill or be killed to support that bunch of rogues in the White House is too horrible to contemplate.
Paul Wolfowitz (Architect of the Iraq fiasco) on David Letterman reckoned the Iraq invasion would be over in three weeks. When asked where the next country was that needed sorting out he replied that they had 50 lined up. The Nats no doubt would be sending our boys and girls a;long to support them. - read supply cannon fodder.

[Hinny]

the "media" are the only voice they listen to.

It would be nice if that wasn't needed and they did as the electorate told them to do.

Are you seriously trying to say that politicians should do as the media 'informed' public tell them by way of petition.
You must remember that the public do get a say at select committee hearings which are non partisan and the politicians get 'educated' through that forum and thence into parliament. That is the Westminster system and has been accepted as the best form of government to have.
To have the media inform the public and have the public form policy and then tell the politicians to go do their bidding is clearly unworkable. Imagine the public being informed by Granny Herald, Leighton Smith or Fox news. Get my drift? Politicians are generally well read individuals that care about the future of this country more than those who bleat about the woes of the state of the nation and the moronic behaviour of our elected leaders.
The place to vocalise your concerns is by talking to your local MP, writing to Ministers responsible for the portfolios one has concerns about or making submissions to select committees. Bleating in public forums etc. without bothering to do the necessary research benefits only those doing the bleating.
I am saddened to see the anti Helen Clark sentiment being expounded here.
Perhaps some of those folk who have been doing this might post their thoughts on who has been a better prime minister in the past and/or who might be a better prime minister in the future. Some reasoned argument for the selections should necessarily be made.
I am strongly of the opinion that 'we don't know how lucky we are.'
Will need pretty good tax cuts in compensation if the dollar plummets like it did under the last National Govt. From around US70 cents to the dollar down to 48 cents in the space of ten months. I wish I had held on to my Yankee dollars a while longer then, that's for sure.

[Swoop]

Are you seriously trying to say that politicians should do as the media 'informed' public tell them...

The place to vocalise your concerns is by talking to your local MP, writing to Ministers responsible for the portfolios one has concerns about.

You are contradicting yourself.
MP's have bosses. The bosses are the public, the voters.

Regardless of how the public have formed their opinion and decision, the MP is there to enact the wishes of the populace. An intelligent public will take all the information presented (including "fox news" as you say) then make their own mind's up.
Unfortunately this present Looney Labourite Sect has made the "publics decision" for them.

[Clockwork]

.... An intelligent public...

Where will we get one of those?

Yeah, I realise is sounds very arrogant but honestly; when you look at society as a whole the intelligence of its' individuals seems to struggle to percolate through all the bull.

[Hinny]

You are contradicting yourself.

No I'm not.

MP's have bosses. The bosses are the public, the voters.

That assumption is a popular misconception leading to people like yourself being displeased with the performance of politicians, It is irrefutably wrong.
You need to do a little more research on this topic.

Regardless of how the public have formed their opinion and decision, the MP is there to enact the wishes of the populace.
There you go again. hey are there to act on our behalf not at our behest.

An intelligent public will take all the information presented (including "fox news" as you say) then make their own mind's up.
That is precisely why your contention is incorrect. Politicians become much better informed than the general public via the parliamentary process.
Look at the performance of self called intelligent talk-back hosts who have tried their hand at being a politician. Pam Corkery for instance still ended up being a drongo imo.
Mind you I think that is a description some might make of all first term politicos and yet a significant number of New Zealand voters thought that a first term unelected person was fit to run the country at the last election. This year the Nats are putting up a similar sort of candidate. I think the top job requires a hell of a lot more experience and talent than any of that lot can muster.

Unfortunately this present Looney Labourite Sect has made the "publics decision" for them.

The country wouldn't be as well off if they were looney and making the publics decision for them is what they are there to do.
If you want to make decisions for the country then maybe you should follow my earlier advice. I believe even a cursory involvement may make you alter your views considerably.

[MSTRS:Me]

If politicians can be likened to parents...they make decisions on our (the children) behalf, which are supposedly in our best interests. Right?
As children, we resented many of those decisions and couldn't see the sense of them. Right?
As children grow up, they tend to realise that parents did know best. Right?
The difference here is that we are still having arguments about many things that pollies have done in the past. That tells me that those pollies (of any/either colour) DON"T know best on our behalf. And as long as they treat us as children, nothing will change. And every 3 years there will be more angst over which condescending know-it-all to choose.
What will it take for the people to really have a voice?

[Swoop]

That assumption is a popular misconception leading to people like yourself being displeased with the performance of politicians, It is irrefutably wrong.
You need to do a little more research on this topic...

So, following your logic, we needn't even have elections. Just let the monkey's do whatever they wish?
Hell, they are doing that when they "pass with urgency" their latest payrise!

The country wouldn't be as well off if they were looney and making the publics decision for them...

We have had that already. The most recent example is the railway buy-back.
Another billion dollars wasted, but they will invent another gubbinment beauracracy to run it, and waste even more of the taxpayer's money. I wonder if you remember when it was gubbinment owned previously?

[Hinny]

If politicians can be likened to parents...they make decisions on our (the children) behalf, which are supposedly in our best interests. Right?
As children, we resented many of those decisions and couldn't see the sense of them. Right?
As children grow up, they tend to realise that parents did know best. Right?
The difference here is that we are still having arguments about many things that pollies have done in the past. That tells me that those pollies (of any/either colour) DON"T know best on our behalf. And as long as they treat us as children, nothing will change. And every 3 years there will be more angst over which condescending know-it-all to choose.
What will it take for the people to really have a voice?

The first part is certainly on the right track.
Politicians like parents are not infallible.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
As for removing the angst over which party to select then I would recommend choosing one that is prepared to stand up and say what they intend to do. With Labour's pledge card 'the people' were able to tick off each policy when it was implemented.
With National they just fudge and remain non committal.
Just look at the debacle over forestry last election. 'Yes there will be a return to Native logging....'No there won't be a return to Native logging'....'There will be some new native logging.'..'There won't be any more native logging than we have at present'..And this in the final week before the election and only the second policy on their website. They don't want to be held accountable. Power without responsibility.

What will it take for the people to really have a voice? Simply one has to get involved in the established political process. Talking to MP's and writing letters has far greater influence than most people realise.
Obviously taking the bad tempered brat approach of Tama Iti is not the way although it may be said the bad tempered approach of his supporters seems to have worked miracles for him thus far.
I would recommend the more civilised approach of merely following established practice. I am sure you have a better chance of getting satisfaction. It may not be satisfaction gained from getting what you want. That could be because what you wanted was not the right thing to get. Discovering that fact may be like an older and wiser child recognising the superiority of her/his parent's knowledge, experience and wisdom. One may gain satisfaction in discovering, shock, horror, that you did not, in fact, know it all beforehand.
Pleasure through disappointment! Is that a little masochistic? Is that the reason so many of our sports teams choke at the final hurdle?
I guess we will see where our collective psyche lies after the next election.
I hope we can all be winners. Of course winning is a perception and is no longer first past the post.

[Swoop]

Propaganda.

Do you have a poster of Heilen Klerke on your bedroom wall?

[Hinny]

Swoop, you do come across as a rather angry young man.
I suggest you take a pill and calm down.
Address the message don't attack the messenger.