Gordon Copeland is an arse

[ManDownUnder]

What about Dajiiro Kato who was killed at Suzuka in a MotoGP race?

How about the parents of a child killed by a karting accident? Should we ban Mario Bro's and any other game that allows you to ride a go-kart and experience that for yourself? Oh of course not, they are 'games' after all, no one actually dies. Hmmm, kind of like GTA.

Both are knowingly involved in risk sports and the families of those people have the opportunity to have a say in the outcome. A far cry from a child falling innocent victim to a paedofile and their family's consequent grief.

I'm getting the feeling that those who complain about these games are the ones we have the most to fear from. No disrespect to anyone intended, but if you want to stop me from doing what I enjoy, that doesn't hurt others or harm their property, then we have a problem.

Agreed!

I'm talking of the actual victims of the actual acts perpertrated in real life then having their noses rubbed in it by those thinking that just because it's on screen it's affecting no-one.

I can name 4 people right here and now - probably reading this post - that fall into exactly that category. What's you answer to them?

"Sure you were abused or raped, sure your life's been turned upside down because of it, and ignore the fact that I abhore rape... unless I'm only enjoying it virtually". HTFU is not an answer for them.

Oh sure we could draw correlations between violence in real life and video games, shaky evidence at that

Yeah - reaaaaalllll shaky. The army invested how much in training sims, training grounds, ammo and the like to normalise the scenarios and get rid of any heistance in killing or maiming people. The more you practice something the less abnormal it is.

It's not causative, but it is normative. Big difference

[onearmedbandit]

Dunno about that. Unless dad hitting mom (or vice versa) is the done thing in your home I doubt that watching TV is going to turn you into a crook.

Bad parenting and a society that does not impose consequences upon unacceptable behaviour is to blame IMHO. As for copycat crime - well the crims do talk to each other and they do get new, and fortunately almost always idiotic, ideas now and again.

If anything the TV is just going to brainwash you into an unquestioning consumer...

My point is the number of items on the news relating to violence, sexual assault, etc etc etc. So more accessible on the TV. Then we have an abundance of 'real life' crime programs, that desensitise us to the above. Shit the number of ways I've learnt to cover my tracks from watching programs like CSI is scary.

However if you want to blame bad parenting (as I do) then we should stop the debate over the banning of games/movies/etc, and put the responsibility soley in the hands of the parents. Pity so many of them are under qualified to handle that particular role.

[ManDownUnder]

Fuck yeah, I agree! MORE GUNS will solve all or our problems...

I hope you're being serious there. More guns, and (most importantly) understanding the rights, responsibilities and consequences of using one... hell yes!

It'd put this virtual shite in perspective real quick, and actually ease my mind considerably. I don't mind shoot 'em up games in the hands of those that have pulled the trigger and seen the life fade from the animal you just killed.

I also firmly believe anyone that enjoys killing for the sake of killing needs to be denied access to guns.

[Str8 Jacket]

I'm talking of the actual victims of the actual acts perpertrated in real life then having their noses rubbed in it by those thinking that just because it's on screen it's affecting no-one.

(This is not aimed at you personally MDU)
Of course not all of us who have been "victims" to some pretty horrid stuff hang on to that. It is naive to think that we have to protect people from what other people enjoy. I agree that the game can and probably does affect some people in a horrific way but you cannot tip toe around everyone in the world who has had something bad happen to them. The world knows what this game is about, if offends you then dont buy it, dont play it and dont have it in your house. Everyones reality is different and if we stopped producing things that may offend people then we would be stuck with Pacman and Tetris for the rest of our lives.
People should have a choice and thats what makes this world a great place.

[onearmedbandit]

Both are knowingly involved in risk sports and the families of those people have the opportunity to have a say in the outcome. A far cry from a child falling innocent victim to a paedofile and their family's consequent grief.

Not seen any games in my time where you can sexually abuse young children. In fact I think you will find that there are laws prohibiting that...

I'm talking of the actual victims of the actual acts perpertrated in real life then having their noses rubbed in it by those thinking that just because it's on screen it's affecting no-one.

I can name 4 people right here and now - probably reading this post - that fall into exactly that category. What's you answer to them?

"Sure you were abused or raped, sure your life's been turned upside down because of it, and ignore the fact that I abhore rape... unless I'm only enjoying it virtually". HTFU is not an answer for them.

Once again, never in all my time have I played a game (and I've played quite a few) where you can rape or sexually abuse someone. Where are you drawing your comparisons from? GTA IV contains sex yes, but no sexual abuse or rape.

Yeah - reaaaaalllll shaky. The army invested how much in training sims, training grounds, ammo and the like to normalise the scenarios and get rid of any heistance in killing or maiming people. The more you practice something the less abnormal it is.

It's not causative, but it is normative. Big difference

How much does the media love to jump on this sort of thing. Blaming Columbine on Marilyn Manson etc. Yet how many times has it cropped up in the news that 'such and such youth admitted to playing [insert evil game name in here] and decided to carry it out in real life...'? A handful, at the most. Reminds me of the lawsuit against Judas Priest that got thrown out.

[ManDownUnder]

(This is not aimed at you personally MDU)

No worries at all. I enjoy the chance to air this stuff. Similarly the response isn't targeted back.

It is naive to think that we have to protect people from what other people enjoy.

This is the guts of what I'm trying to say (I think...). Let's choose running over kids as the example.

I don't see how a person can say they are against it (and I'd hope they do), yet derive pleasure from it when it's done on a PC. Isn't that a tad hypocritical?

What would you say if The Pope enjoyed a good ol' game of something involving rape and murder?

[onearmedbandit]

What game involves running over children and raping people?????

[Mikkel]

I hope you're being serious there. More guns, and (most importantly) understanding the rights, responsibilities and consequences of using one... hell yes!

It'd put this virtual shite in perspective real quick, and actually ease my mind considerably. I don't mind shoot 'em up games in the hands of those that have pulled the trigger and seen the life fade from the animal you just killed.

I also firmly believe anyone that enjoys killing for the sake of killing needs to be denied access to guns.

Your hope is very misplaced then - I was being about as sarcastic as I could possibly be.

Now don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with guns when used for hunting and when being used responsible.

However, and the "Fuck yeah" was a hint, if the Americas show us anything in regards to this subject, it has to be that an increased supply of guns doesn't exactly help anything.

I get what you are saying about respect for the prey and not killing for the sake of killing. However, this has NO relation to computer games at all IMHO.

The fact that you try and make something special out of seeing "the life fade from an animal" and are relating that to FPSers concerns me slightly. It's a bit like saying "I don't mind CRPGs in the hands of those people who have tried taking a life with a sword and seen the life fade from the animal you just killed." (FYI - I consider humans animals too... although this is not always flattering to the animals, I am sorry.)

[Str8 Jacket]

[/SIZE]

This is the guts of what I'm trying to say (I think...). Let's choose running over kids as the example.

I don't see how a person can say they are against it (and I'd hope they do), yet derive pleasure from it when it's done on a PC. Isn't that a tad hypocritical?

What would you say if The Pope enjoyed a good ol' game of something involving rape and murder?

I would say to you then you must have never played GTA, cause that certainly isnt what the game is!
As for the pope and anyone else, who am I to say what they should and shouldnt enjoy in their own home. Certainly a sicko is a sicko but there are alot of "normal" people who probably would never act out something that they play on a PC. Each to their own I say!

What game involves running over children and raping people?????

Yeah, what he said....

[ManDownUnder]

Not seen any games in my time where you can sexually abuse young children. In fact I think you will find that there are laws prohibiting that...

Yes - but why? Using your argument below - if it's only virtual... wouldn't you stand for the rights of anyone wanting to do that?

No disrespect to anyone intended, but if you want to stop me from doing what I enjoy, that doesn't hurt others or harm their property, then we have a problem.

Once again, never in all my time have I played a game (and I've played quite a few) where you can rape or sexually abuse someone. Where are you drawing your comparisons from? GTA IV contains sex yes, but no sexual abuse or rape.

OK - point take (thanks). What about shooting cops? Stealing cars, running people over?

How much does the media love to jump on this sort of thing. Blaming Columbine on Marilyn Manson etc. Yet how many times has it cropped up in the news that 'such and such youth admitted to playing [insert evil game name in here] and decided to carry it out in real life...'? A handful, at the most. Reminds me of the lawsuit against Judas Priest that got thrown out.

No argument there, and I suggest that a number of those are simply looking for a cop out.

That said - I don't think it's causative, it's normative like I previously mentioned. It doesn't make you do that shite, but it supresses some the alarm bells that would have gone off when someone gets pissed off and wants to run someone down.

If' it's a familiar action... the training is there and it sure makes it easier.

[ManDownUnder]

However, and the "Fuck yeah" was a hint, if the Americas show us anything in regards to this subject, it has to be that an increased supply of guns doesn't exactly help anything.

So why don't the Swiss have similar problems?

at least one gun per household... the essence is in the training. The Swiss are trained to use them - every 4 or 5 years they spend time in the army etc etc etc.

It's the culture. The swiss know and respect guns.

I get what you are saying about respect for the prey and not killing for the sake of killing. However, this has NO relation to computer games at all IMHO.

The fact that you try and make something special out of seeing "the life fade from an animal" and are relating that to FPSers concerns me slightly.

It's a bit like saying "I don't mind CRPGs in the hands of those people who have tried taking a life with a sword and seen the life fade from the animal you just killed." (FYI - I consider humans animals too... although this is not always flattering to the animals, I am sorry.)

That's nothing at all like what I meant. I'm simply saying (albeit in a dramatic fashion - sorry) if you understand the reality of what you're pretending to do in a game you will have a very different opinion of it.

You're right about the animal comparison though. At least they're honest

[avgas]

those that have pulled the trigger and seen the life fade from the animal you just killed.

Should not be in the same context in NZ.
Too many bush deaths.
Seems these days if you really hate someone - you take them hunting.
Seems there alot of gun-ho out there but not many people facing up the consequence of where the bullet goes. Why because there is no learners for shooters - you walk up sign the paper and you qualify for a locker full of whatever.
The rest of us they understand where the bullet goes got shot with slug pellets and the like.
Confirm your target doesn't seem to apply in NZ culture.

[Usarka]

i agree with almost everything said in this thread.

[Mikkel]

So why don't the Swiss have similar problems?

at least one gun per household... the essence is in the training. The Swiss are trained to use them - every 4 or 5 years they spend time in the army etc etc etc.

It's the culture. The swiss know and respect guns.

That may be. Switzerland has its own problems though AFAIK.

Besides - NZ is whole lot more like the US than like Switzerland! That said I agree that conscription might have a positive influence - but let's not drag this thread in that direction we have covered that plenty in an older thread.

That's nothing at all like what I meant. I'm simply saying (albeit in a dramatic fashion - sorry) if you understand the reality of what you're pretending to do in a game you will have a very different opinion of it.

You're right about the animal comparison though. At least they're honest

Ah, I'm sure you picked up on me being a bit dramatic as well

I still fail to see how going out in the bush hunting in your spare time, not out of need but out of pleasure/desire/whatever you wanna call it, prepares you for the reality of being in mortal peril, fighting for your life and an objective on some generic battlefield in cyberspace. Can you explain that to me?

Yes, honesty is good!

[scumdog]

Why because there is no learners for shooters - you walk up sign the paper and you qualify for a locker full of whatever.
The rest of us they understand where the bullet goes got shot with slug pellets and the like.
Confirm your target doesn't seem to apply in NZ culture.

So how many ARE killed by firearms in the NZ bush each year?
AND have YOU got a firearms licence?

And where did yoU learn to troll???