Race Tech pistons in stock cartridges

[Crasherfromwayback]

Shuddup you, my shock is holding me back!

Runs off to the corner for a cry in realisation I suck

As Robert will tell you, a great rear shock and shock setup will definately help you go faster, and this isn't aimed at you, but there are heaps of racers out there that need to be able to ride the thing to it's limits 'stock' before they need to spend money. A decent shock is worth quite a few sets of tyres, and a lot of people would bet better off having fresh tyres.

That's certainly not meant to take business away from Robert, and I hope it doesn't as everyone I've talked to that's spent money with him has been 100% rapt, it's purely my take. It just seems to me that the 'art' of riding round certain problems seems to be dying.

Maybe it's because modern sports bikes are so good. Better in fact than most of us are riders.

[Robert Taylor]

It doesn't sound in the least smug, and you make a lot of valid points and obviously know your business incredibly well.

I don't wish to sound smug either, but Darryl with his stock shock was faster than Shayne. That's not to say obviously that Darryl wouldn't have been able to go faster longer with an Ohlins unit, but it reminds me of the one thing that never changes with fast racers. They'll win on/with anything, because they're that good.

Ive got to concede that Daryl always had more raw speed than Shayne but in the end event Shayne most often had better setup and overall preparation. It always pains me that in his second season at Husqvarna ( World 500 MX champs )they made Daryl take a very retrograde step and he had to use Sachs suspension ( politics ) That arguably cost him a world title, which he richly deserved.

[Robert Taylor]

As Robert will tell you, a great rear shock and shock setup will definately help you go faster, and this isn't aimed at you, but there are heaps of racers out there that need to be able to ride the thing to it's limits 'stock' before they need to spend money. A decent shock is worth quite a few sets of tyres, and a lot of people would bet better off having fresh tyres.

That's certainly not meant to take business away from Robert, and I hope it doesn't as everyone I've talked to that's spent money with him has been 100% rapt, it's purely my take. It just seems to me that the 'art' of riding round certain problems seems to be dying.

Maybe it's because modern sports bikes are so good. Better in fact than most of us are riders.

In all reality most of these modern sportbikes need suspension work to stop chewing through tyres and this is very apparent even at trackday level, especially if the rider is onto it or has ''challenging'' personal stats. So decently sorted suspension that saves the tyres will save over-expenditure on tyres. Theres no real way of fudging the issue anymore as the ''setting window'' of what works is a heck of a lot narrower than in years past.
Nothing is simple anymore!

[Ivan]

In all reality most of these modern sportbikes need suspension work to stop chewing through tyres and this is very apparent even at trackday level, especially if the rider is onto it or has ''challenging'' personal stats. So decently sorted suspension that saves the tyres will save over-expenditure on tyres. Theres no real way of fudging the issue anymore as the ''setting window'' of what works is a heck of a lot narrower than in years past.
Nothing is simple anymore!

Yip got to agree with you there even on the SV which aint no R1 or GSXR
But the back shock in it isnt adequite at all and is producing tire wear quite hard at a average pace no were near fast but after you sorting those few problems in the front end the frotn shows no tire wear. The tire has been wearing perfectly and I cant wiatfor round 2 to race on the ohlins.

[JD Racing]

If the bleed job on a shock is careless there will be a much higher percentage of air bubbles homogenised into the oil and that will also initiate fade sooner. We have an Ohlins vacuum bleeding machine pending on arrival within the next month, that is another subject.

They're an amazing piece of kit, I wish I'd bought mine years before I did, it makes bleeding shocks, steering dampers and gas forks so quick and easy, if I was to start all over again it would be the very first tool I bought.

[CookMySock]

I'm surprised these shocks don't have a diaphragm separating the gas from the oil.

DB

[Pussy]

I'm surprised these shocks don't have a diaphragm separating the gas from the oil.

DB

They do.... but assembling and oiling a shock is very precise, and ALL air must be bled from the oil, that's the trick

[Robert Taylor]

They do.... but assembling and oiling a shock is very precise, and ALL air must be bled from the oil, that's the trick

Very low cost shocks have no oil / nitogen seperation and are called emulsion shocks ( or cynically ''milkshake shocks'' ) Installation must be the correct way up for them to work properly. OEM shocks on most Japanese sportbikes , MX bikes etc have a seperating bladder, again that is largely a concession to mass production costs. And the negative by product of that is nitrogen migration through the bladder into the oil, turning it into a quasi milkshake shock. They are so ''mixed'' before they even arrive on the showroom floor!
The very highest quality aftermarket shocks for such bikes ( Ohlins, WP, Penske, works Showa ) have a very accurately and smooth processed internal reservoir bore to accept a floating gas piston. Done properly ( which they are ) this eliminates the problem of nitrogen migration and also is a further measure to delay the onset of fade.
As JD says a vacuum bleeding tool just does the job so much better as more air ( and its toxic elements ) is eliminated, the oil is therefore also less compressible.
One problem with floating gas pistons is that there are ( and no apologies for the brutality ) so many dumb bastards out there assembling shocks with only enough knowledge to be dangerous. We see a lot where the gas piston position is totally wrong, meaning that the nitrogen pressure rise at full stroke movements goes absolutely ballistic. In extreme circumstances that can blow a shock apart. If your knowledge is limited take it to an expert!

[JimBob]

As Robert will tell you, a great rear shock and shock setup will definately help you go faster, and this isn't aimed at you, but there are heaps of racers out there that need to be able to ride the thing to it's limits 'stock' before they need to spend money. A decent shock is worth quite a few sets of tyres, and a lot of people would bet better off having fresh tyres.

That's certainly not meant to take business away from Robert, and I hope it doesn't as everyone I've talked to that's spent money with him has been 100% rapt, it's purely my take. It just seems to me that the 'art' of riding round certain problems seems to be dying.

Maybe it's because modern sports bikes are so good. Better in fact than most of us are riders.

Couldnt agree more. Too much is made of you must have this suspension or these tyres or this whatever the latest techo whizzthingy is.
Having the latest suspension helps, no doubt, but what it can also do is mask deficencies that riders with not so much experience and skill may have. Sooner or later this catches up with them. Whereas a rider who has developed his skill and experience on for example stock machinery is usually much better placed to take advantage of high tech addons, eg ohlins.
If the riders experience and skill develops along with machinery development (as opposed to jumping on the the most advanced piece of machinery available) he or she will come out the other end much better off.
In other words putting ohlins on your bike wont make you a better rider, might make you a bit faster for a while, but in a lot of cases it can hold back your skill development.
And thats why even if you have ohlins you can still get beaten by a better rider regardless of what they are on.
I realize this is radical thinking but its my excuse for not spending bucket loads of cash so what the heck
cheers

[Drew]

Couldnt agree more. Too much is made of you must have this suspension or these tyres or this whatever the latest techo whizzthingy is.
Having the latest suspension helps, no doubt, but what it can also do is mask deficencies that riders with not so much experience and skill may have. Sooner or later this catches up with them. Whereas a rider who has developed his skill and experience on for example stock machinery is usually much better placed to take advantage of high tech addons, eg ohlins.
If the riders experience and skill develops along with machinery development (as opposed to jumping on the the most advanced piece of machinery available) he or she will come out the other end much better off.
In other words putting ohlins on your bike wont make you a better rider, might make you a bit faster for a while, but in a lot of cases it can hold back your skill development.
And thats why even if you have ohlins you can still get beaten by a better rider regardless of what they are on.
I realize this is radical thinking but its my excuse for not spending bucket loads of cash so what the heck
cheers

It will not hold back your skill at all to have better machinery. You will develop as a rider differently for sure, but it's not going to slow the learning process down.

I think of skill, as "feel". Learning lines and the like comes with it, but knowing what the bike is diong under you is key, so knowing what it does when set up right seems more important to me.

Riding lesser bikes may infact teach as many bad habbits as good.

I learnt to ride fast on total shit heaps, and had to re learn a hell of a lot before I could advance on my race bike.

[JD Racing]

Couldnt agree more. Too much is made of you must have this suspension or these tyres or this whatever the latest techo whizzthingy is.
Having the latest suspension helps, no doubt, but what it can also do is mask deficencies that riders with not so much experience and skill may have. Sooner or later this catches up with them. Whereas a rider who has developed his skill and experience on for example stock machinery is usually much better placed to take advantage of high tech addons, eg ohlins.
If the riders experience and skill develops along with machinery development (as opposed to jumping on the the most advanced piece of machinery available) he or she will come out the other end much better off.
In other words putting ohlins on your bike wont make you a better rider, might make you a bit faster for a while, but in a lot of cases it can hold back your skill development.
And thats why even if you have ohlins you can still get beaten by a better rider regardless of what they are on.
I realize this is radical thinking but its my excuse for not spending bucket loads of cash so what the heck
cheers

Good quality suspension will not hold back your development as a rider, riding round on poor suspension teaches nobody anything apart from how to crash. Quality parts allow you to ride with a greater margin of safety with better control of your machine, as Robert has said you get less tyre wear so you also save money, I've seen shocks that have completely destroyed a rear tyre in 7 laps of a track, the answer isn't to keep throwing new tyres at it.

[mashman]

Good quality suspension will not hold back your development as a rider, riding round on poor suspension teaches nobody anything apart from how to crash. Quality parts allow you to ride with a greater margin of safety with better control of your machine, as Robert has said you get less tyre wear so you also save money, I've seen shocks that have completely destroyed a rear tyre in 7 laps of a track, the answer isn't to keep throwing new tyres at it.

Over the last 2 years, through trial and error I have gone through what seemed like good setups and bad setups, suspension wise. I'm not a fast rider by any means (waste of a good bike maybe, don't care...), it's the safety margin that I go for as JD has pointed out... There have been occassions where the pace has quickened slightly and at each of those intervals I have noticed how well the suspension is setup, taking into account the condition of the tyres, age of the shock etc... Instead of buying a PC3 or throwing money at a bigger bore for more power, I have the following words ringing in my ears "There is no power without control", dunno who said it, but it's nevertheless true. So before I try modding for more performance, i'd rather fit the bike with the ability to handle it... That also comes under the guise of then re-learning how the bike will perform la di da... It's swings and roundabouts, we all ride differently, we all want different things from our bikes... i'd just like the extra comfort factor of knowing that if i fuck up, the $$$ put into suspension may well save my ass (irrespective of how experienced a rider we are, we will likely fuck up at some point)... and hopefully i'll learn from that so that should I add the power mods I won't summarily head out and hurl myself from the top of the Takas...

[JimBob]

Good quality suspension will not hold back your development as a rider, riding round on poor suspension teaches nobody anything apart from how to crash. Quality parts allow you to ride with a greater margin of safety with better control of your machine, as Robert has said you get less tyre wear so you also save money, I've seen shocks that have completely destroyed a rear tyre in 7 laps of a track, the answer isn't to keep throwing new tyres at it.

part of my point
If your skill level is such that you cant get around the track without crashing when using stock suspension, then fitting high quality suspension doesnt change your skill level, it just delays the inevitable. You will either crash or you wont be riding hard enough to take full advantage of your hi tech advantage.
Whereas someone who can overcome the deficiencies of "stock" suspension will be better equiped skill wise to take full advantage of their hi tech suspension.
The whole field could have ohlins but there will still only be one winner.
IMHO

[JD Racing]

part of my point
If your skill level is such that you cant get around the track without crashing when using stock suspension, then fitting high quality suspension doesnt change your skill level, it just delays the inevitable. You will either crash or you wont be riding hard enough to take full advantage of your hi tech advantage.
Whereas someone who can overcome the deficiencies of "stock" suspension will be better equiped skill wise to take full advantage of their hi tech suspension.
The whole field could have ohlins but there will still only be one winner.
IMHO

ha haaa, I see this very same attitude at the start of every season, I don't need aftermarket suspension, this bikes got high and low speed adjustment, I don't need to spend all that money, modern stock suspension is plenty good enough! After the first race the lucky ones struggle to climb off the bike looking like they've been gang raped by wild gorillas, they're completely exhausted finishing at the tail end of the field, the unlucky ones had someone block pass them when the forks were already bottomed and lost the front, or highsided on a shot rear tyre, they're sat in the gravel staring teary eyed at a very bent bike now with a very big bill for crash damage and decent suspension.

[Robert Taylor]

ha haaa, I see this very same attitude at the start of every season, I don't need aftermarket suspension, this bikes got high and low speed adjustment, I don't need to spend all that money, modern stock suspension is plenty good enough! After the first race the lucky ones struggle to climb off the bike looking like they've been gang raped by wild gorillas, they're completely exhausted finishing at the tail end of the field, the unlucky ones had someone block pass them when the forks were already bottomed and lost the front, or highsided on a shot rear tyre, they're sat in the gravel staring teary eyed at a very bent bike now with a very big bill for crash damage and decent suspension.

That about sums it up and another reason that people seek better suspension is it helps them to go faster. Most racers that I know want to go faster! ( and with more control ) Its also interesting to compare MX to road racing. In all fairness MX suspension ''out of the box'' is at a significantly higher level than sportbike suspension. Although it is still dependent on correct spring rate for rider weight and can also be improved substanially.
Road racing ( and we are talking here about adapting road going sportbikes for the track ) are at a lower level of suspension refinement. Its all very well believing all the pr hype such as ''race bred suspension'' etc. Thats almost as big a porky as ''I was in the back of the car doing paperwork and didnt know we were speeding'' As JD eluded to as an oft quoted example ''my bike doesnt need aftermarket suspension, its got high and low speed adjustment'' Many of these oem adjusters may as well be there for decoration as its the internal design that is actually the key factor. Thats exactly where the manufacturers DONT spend the money. Its almost as perverse as stick on imitation carbon fibre graphics, looks or function?
If stock suspension was as good and race bred as the manufacturers state then why do all the respective NZ champions race with top end aftermarket suspension e.g Robbie Bugden Ohlins front and rear, Dennis Charlett, Ohlins front and rear, Glen Williams Ohlins front and rear, Karl Morgan, WP. ?????