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Thread: Race Tech pistons in stock cartridges

  1. #1
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    Race Tech pistons in stock cartridges

    At the first 08 VMCC round last Sunday at Taupo we tested some new type Race Tech pistons. These were fitted into the stock fork cartridges in Sam Smiths new 08 Yamaha R6.
    The reality is this was a little enforced upon us as we are still awaiting a new set of 08 specific Ohlins cartridge kits for that very bike, but we also thought hey this is an excellent opportunity. Sams memory of the Ohlins cartridges in his 06 /07 championship winning R6 was going to be a solid baseline to compare against. But also we have made a lot of further progress in fitting different pistons into these and refining the settings further. This was proven to devastating effect when Midge Smart returned from injury and won the last two rounds of the Nats.
    So prior to this last weekend we installed Race Tech compression pistons and their relatively new ''high frequency'' rebound pistons. These discard the inferior ''checkplate midvalve'' and employ a bending shim stack midvalve, copying Ohlins lead with their 25mm FGK cartridges. Such a design places much more emphasis for damping control on the backface of the rebound piston instead of having a checkplate that lifts meaning very little control and almost all the control on the base valve in the bottom of the forks. So the design and function becomes much much closer to a reservoir type shock absorber. Damping response and therefore CONTROL is much more instantaneous instead of essentially being a little delayed................by which time the horse has essentially bolted and therefore takes a lot more force to bring under control.
    So, better brake dive resistance and more sidegrip on account of the setting being less compromised.
    Nearly a full day was spent on our suspension dyno and the damping curve we required was already on our database, a well developed Ohlins FGK damping curve. The task at hand was to mimic that and we achieved same after 4 revalves and dyno tests. Candidly, the Race Tech suggested settings were not going to work so well especially the rebound curve. That rather agrees with my often mentioned opinion that you should have experience and skill to fit these kits. And it seems $35k or more of test equipment!
    Anyway, Sam briefly tested these forks at Pukekohe and was very very surprised how well they worked, with abslolutely no further adjustments post delivery.
    We met with Sam at Taupo early on the Sunday. The day included an agenda to test a new piston in the TTX36 rear shock and to that end we had a rear tyre fitted that was way past its use by date. Also Sam had not raced since his horrendous highside at the Nats 4 months previous so we were not expecting miracles and frankly were there to test, race results only being incidental. Some incremental setting changes and valving was carried out to the rear over the first 2 races, very minor changes in the front were carried out after we changed the chassis geometry a little. That merely included lowering the oil level very slightly and changing the compression damping by 2 clicks.
    A still worn but fresher rear tyre was fitted for the last race as by that time we were confident of a great setting in the rear. The upshot was Sam won the last race, pullig away after he passed into the lead. He set a new F2 lap record for Taupo, this in spite of a cold track , the motor being stock standard with a stock pipe and lack of recent race miles for the rider. So Sams talent and the suspension package was clearly doing the job.

    There are therefore several points that are relevant to my diatribe above;

    1) I have absolutely no doubt that Ohlins cartridges would have worked better again for reasons that they seriously address the friction issues and everything is on the same centreline! Moreover the 25mm piston size ( as opposed to oem 20mm and other peoples aftermarket cartridges ) push more fluid and that pays dividends in brake dive resistance. Especially during the summer months when there is lots of grip to be had. The ability to make quick setting changes to these and the unbelievable ease of changing springs is also a HUGE bonus for overworked suspension technicians!
    But, concedingly not everyone can afford these ( but a counter argument is that they have value to onsell second hand so it is not once only dead money )
    2) But at considerably less cost ( around $1350 all up ) we can now offer a full upspec specific to the owners requirements, be it road race, trackday or road use only. Thats inclusive of new compression pistons, ''high frequency'' rebound pistons that embrace bending shim stack midvalve technology, new appropriately rated springs and spacers and Ohlins oil.
    We guarantee that the end result exceeds all other 20mm cartridge options available and delivers great bang for buck. Sam has already proven so!!
    3) This upspec can also easily be fitted into Traxxion Dynamics cartridges ( both AK20 and AK gas )to deliver a significant improvement. ( Note that we are the only suspension workshop in NZ trained by Traxxion Dynamics, certified and with all of the appropriate and specific service tools)
    4) We must pay credit to our suspension dyno in assisting with development as it gives us a visual representation of the damping curves and overlays them as we make changes to the valving stacks. Also, having a huge database of well tested Ohlins curves gives us a target to aim for. That is exactly what we did with Sams test forks and we were able to take it straight to the track and it was on the money straight away.

    As stated we are using ( exclusively ) Ohlins oil with our fork upspecs. A couple of years back we employed Craig Shirriffs to carry out back to back tests with Ohlins fork oil against what we at the time adjudged to be the best aftermarket commonly known fork oil at the time. The result was apparent straight away, you could ride on the very first lap a lot harder, in cold conditions. It is a fact that Ohlins produce a very large number of Snowmobile suspension units that get ridden in very cold temperatures. They are therefore very pedantic about having suspension fluids that flow very very well at cold temperatures.
    Now, In Europe and North America the temps in winter are usually so cold that motorcycle racing stops. But here in New Zealand the extremes are not as bad so we have series like VMCC over the winter months, that means we are for the most part racing in temps that the Europeans etc largely dont! Forks run at ambient temperature or slightly below so it makes sense to instal a high quality and ( also ) very slippery oil that has much better flow properties at such temps. Cheap $20 1 litre oil packs just dont cut it, fact. Every fork we upspec gets the good stuff, if it didnt we would be doing a substandard job.


    As a further aside we handed out over 50 draft copies of suspension set up / troubleshooting manuals at Taupo. These are not a major textbook but do answer most commonly asked questions in an easy to understand format. Anything more detailed and we will answer questions directly forwarded to us. We have this manual stored electronically and will happily forward to anyone who requests it.

    We have been in the suspension game now for 20 years or more and intend to do so until too old and silly to do so! Others come and go but our focus is to provide the best possible product and service. It does take years and years to get on top of this game and that includes considerable personal investment in training overseas etc. No-one is born with instant talent to be a suspension technician, it is about lots and lots of experience, training and a huge, totally focused committment.

    We will answer any questions at any time dealing with any brand of suspension unit, be it by phone. e-mail or trackside etc.

    Ph: 06 751 2100 * Email: robert@kss.net.nz
    Mob: 021 825 514 * Fax: 06 751 4551

  2. #2
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    Yet another entertaining and informative read. When are you publishing a book?
    Could you please email me a copy of said troubleshooting guide, as I wasn't at Taupo?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dean View Post
    Ok im coming out of my closet just this one time , I too kinda have a curvy figure which makes it worse beacuse im a guy. Well the waist kinda goes in and the bum pushes out. When I was in college the girls in my year would slap me on the arse and squeeze because apparently it is firm, tight... I wear jeans
    .....if I find this as a signature Ill hunt you down, serious, capice?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDTboy View Post
    Yet another entertaining and informative read. When are you publishing a book?
    Could you please email me a copy of said troubleshooting guide, as I wasn't at Taupo?
    On receipt of your e-mail address that would indeed be possible.

    Ph: 06 751 2100 * Email: robert@kss.net.nz
    Mob: 021 825 514 * Fax: 06 751 4551

  4. #4
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    Wanting to quantify the gains from kits like these is off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imdying View Post
    Would love to see some of these curves... say OEM/AK20/Ohlins kit for a GSXR1000 front fork. No problem with you stripping out the actual numbers to protect your investment or whatever, just interested in seeing how the curves relate to each other (wouldn't mind some detail on basic interpretation of them though. that'd be neat).
    We would have to reserve that as intellectual property as its also about the shaping of the curves to achieve best off corner traction. Our investment is massive, sorry but we have to draw a line on that one.

    Ph: 06 751 2100 * Email: robert@kss.net.nz
    Mob: 021 825 514 * Fax: 06 751 4551

  6. #6
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    Wanting to quantify the gains from kits like these is off topic.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by imdying View Post
    But if nobody else has a shock dyno anyway, they wouldn't be able to even know if they were replicating your curves... and so what if they did try, isn't the trick in knowing how to achieve the curves anyway?

    If not the GSXR, as that's still relevant and current, how about something that used to be popular, but now isn't... would you have any stock/lightly modified/high end charts for those? How about something like a 92 CBR900RR?

    Anything at all?
    Yes but if someone else steps up and purchases a shock dyno Im not going to pre-impart knowledge for free that has cost me a LOT of time and money ( maybe not far short of 100k over the years ) to accumulate. I have been very free with sharing what I have learnt and have helped a lot of people out of goodwill ( maybe too much so ) but have to draw a line in the sand somewhere! Sorry if that sounds harsh but I am not going to train would be competitors over a public forum. I have been through it for many years with people milking knowledge for their own ( competitive ) gain.

    Ph: 06 751 2100 * Email: robert@kss.net.nz
    Mob: 021 825 514 * Fax: 06 751 4551

  8. #8
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    This is all good if the rider wants lots of brake dive resistance, what if he wants the tyre really loading hard under braking so that he can feel exactly what the tyre is doing prior to turn in, there are alot of riders out there complaining of vague front ends or front ends that are sitting high on corner entry.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD Racing View Post
    This is all good if the rider wants lots of brake dive resistance, what if he wants the tyre really loading hard under braking so that he can feel exactly what the tyre is doing prior to turn in, there are alot of riders out there complaining of vague front ends or front ends that are sitting high on corner entry.
    Well aware of that over several seasons and have that covered, there was no intimation that superb brake dive resistance was ''everything'' at the expense of tyre feel that you have so correctly eluded to.

    Ph: 06 751 2100 * Email: robert@kss.net.nz
    Mob: 021 825 514 * Fax: 06 751 4551

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD Racing View Post
    This is all good if the rider wants lots of brake dive resistance, what if he wants the tyre really loading hard under braking so that he can feel exactly what the tyre is doing prior to turn in, there are alot of riders out there complaining of vague front ends or front ends that are sitting high on corner entry.
    Of note is that the new Race Tech rebound piston almost perfectly mimics the flow characteristics of the ''old faithful'' Ohlins 20mm pistons on rebound function, excepting that it is adapted for bending shim stack midvalve on compression flow.

    Ph: 06 751 2100 * Email: robert@kss.net.nz
    Mob: 021 825 514 * Fax: 06 751 4551

  11. #11
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    I think you'll find the bending shim stack midvalve was first used by Showa in motocross forks a long long time before it appeared on Ohlins forks.

    Having done lots of experimentation with 20mm bending shim stack midvalves over the past few years I've moved away from the traditional bending shim stack, it's hard to get the correct resistance where you want it in the speed range, letting the horse bolt out the stable door is not always a bad thing, it stops the cavitation bounce you can get with some midvalve builds, you just have to have the ability to pull the reigns.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD Racing View Post
    I think you'll find the bending shim stack midvalve was first used by Showa in motocross forks a long long time before it appeared on Ohlins forks.

    Having done lots of experimentation with 20mm bending shim stack midvalves over the past few years I've moved away from the traditional bending shim stack, it's hard to get the correct resistance where you want it in the speed range, letting the horse bolt out the stable door is not always a bad thing, it stops the cavitation bounce you can get with some midvalve builds, you just have to have the ability to pull the reigns.



    Horse Bolt Stable door

    Kind of like a trouser cough? Before the full follow through with the used goods I am guessing

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD Racing View Post
    I think you'll find the bending shim stack midvalve was first used by Showa in motocross forks a long long time before it appeared on Ohlins forks.

    Having done lots of experimentation with 20mm bending shim stack midvalves over the past few years I've moved away from the traditional bending shim stack, it's hard to get the correct resistance where you want it in the speed range, letting the horse bolt out the stable door is not always a bad thing, it stops the cavitation bounce you can get with some midvalve builds, you just have to have the ability to pull the reigns.
    That is correct but as you also very well know it has only more recently been embraced in road and road race use where you have relatively short stroke movements. You may be having trouble getting the ''correct resistance'' with what you are working with but we are not! Yes, am also abundantly aware of the need for pressure balance and the risk of cavitation.
    I think you should divulge details of any forums that you may be involved in in your country so that we can continue such a debate on your patch? Or have you not got the intestinal fortitude to do so?

    Ph: 06 751 2100 * Email: robert@kss.net.nz
    Mob: 021 825 514 * Fax: 06 751 4551

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    Horse Bolt Stable door

    Kind of like a trouser cough? Before the full follow through with the used goods I am guessing
    This is a serious discussion.

    Ph: 06 751 2100 * Email: robert@kss.net.nz
    Mob: 021 825 514 * Fax: 06 751 4551

  15. #15
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    Quoted from Rob

    I think you should divulge details of any forums that you may be involved in in your country so that we can continue such a debate on your patch? Or have you not got the intestinal fortitude to do so?

    O thats write, you are GOD! Relax rob, Or do you not like to be challenged/guided/advised by a man with obviously has as much and more experience than you.

    I am one of the KB members who really enjoy the extra input in the suspension thread from a freind, would you mind NOT tryng to push him away from this web site please, OR Have you invested over 100K into this site as well

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