Disbelief at what I heard

[motorbyclist]

now here's an interesting one....

i said to dushi that maybe he'd better stfu before he makes more of an ass of himself.

he was arguing using only knowledge from his employer and 6 months of riding, against my 7 years of riding on and off road, plus being from a family of bikers on both sides.

why does this matter? because he doesn't realise that in 7 years i have had many accidents offraod, a few onroad, and plenty of time to receive and review information

nor does he realise that the training he receives at motomail is going to have a large bias to selling the product rather than actually teaching them the whole story of what is/isn't good practice. if the latter was the case they wouldn't even stock draggin jeans nor open face helmets or anything short of full armoured leathers.

it seems that he is just absorbing info and spitting it back out without processing - fanatically atgatt, his own expert on riding, yet only 6 months experience! crashes enough to make me worried, but that is partly due to the bike he was riding, and totally flaunting the whole learner system by going on open road rides, all while still going "atgatt!!!"

i have a stupid suggestion here, but i think dushi would be well served by riding with more minimal gear for a while. the most effective way to learn is from mistakes - the trick is to survive them unscathed. as such i do have him round to ride motocross bikes without any armour in the hope he'll learn how to avoid an crash, how to behave during one, and how to save a bike experiencing a skid.

my thinking being that with some experience as to what crashing unprotected is like, he might come to better appreciate what gear does for us. there's a reason i have had only one actual "crash" on the road (due to sleep) and i managed to avoid injury, and that is because i've had the time to learn how to crash, and thus how not to crash.

fact is, i have ridden in open face helmets before - and the first thing i did after than experience was buy a full face. i was 12 and i was able even then to realise how downright dangerous having your face sticking out was, along with how stupid an offroad trike is. now nearly 20 and still stick by that decision and have only had evidence to support it. family members getting hurt, full face helmets with significant damage to jaw guards, the advice and experience of my elders and all the other bikers i've met, even stuff here on KB.

my point?
if you were truly qualified to be arguing about gear then you wouldn't be arguing in favour of open face helmets

[motorbyclist]

maybe you should pull your head out of your ass and start thinking "what if" and re-consider your arguments:

your argument in favour of open face for safety is unfounded
your argument that you are qualified to argue in favour of open face is questionable
your argument that downplaying the risks (which you seem unaware of) infront of a newbie isn't a downright irresponsible idea is plain ridiculous - let them learn then decide when they can truly make an informed decision, which will be to go full face anyway if it's not driven by fashion reasons.


to be truly safe, one should always assume a worst case scenario. it's what engineers do and what bikers should do. i see you wear atgatt, but claim you will wear an open face helmet. that doesn't add up, which leads me to believe you haven't thought all this through and were simply arguing with me for the sake of not being shot down in your moment of glory infront of the girl.

i didn't want to ruin your moment, but as i said before, it is irresponsible to downplay the risks involved for a new rider, or in my case, to allow another to do so. i would hate to have said nothing and had her killed or maimed as a result - i would rather her take the bus than have an accident in an open face helmet. i'm not saying i'd take the keys off the girl if she bought an open face helmet, but that i'd strongly suggest to her to put it in the bin. i do hope you realise the seriousness of your job as a salesman to new riders. sure atgatt will price them out of bikes, but an open face helmet doesn't come into the price equation

[Sofa]

I'd just like to say, good job Andrew that took you ages! Totally worth it though, because your argument is totally valid I agree with you

Can I just ask if you are going to comment on the other content in this thread?

Oh and sorry, didn't realise that you weren't finished

[motorbyclist]

ok

*puts flame retardent suit on*

could probably do with some proof reading to check for logical inconsistencies you guys will probably find

flame/post/troll away!

[motorbyclist]

I'd just like to say, good job Andrew that took you ages! Totally worth it though, because your argument is totally valid I agree with you

Can I just ask if you are going to comment on the other content in this thread?

Oh and sorry, didn't realise that you weren't finished

tsk tsk!

yeah i would comment on the rest of this thread but as i read it people were answering things for me anyway. kinda a good thing i waited this long to post or there wouldn't be ay other posts though... it's funny how logical arguments backed by statistics ends most threads (cheese cutter arguments on non bike forums were my favourite to "ruin" with facts)

i agree with most or all of the comments in favour of full face helmets, especially the first 2 ones speaking from experience.

and phurball's pic with statistics saved me searching my bike pics folder; bling to be awarded once i'm able

EDIT: holy crap that wall of text took me half an hour to type!

[Ragingrob]

Bravo Andrew... Bravo, quite a rebuttal!

One point that I would just like to reiterate for Dushi, it is a point that pissed off me and other club members...

Now, when you have a problem with what someone's said or anything personal at all, DO NOT think that somehow it magically must be the opinion of the entire SMC, especially when it has nothing to do with the SMC at all. DO NOT start bashing the SMC as a whole based on your opinion of what we must all secretly be thinking. DO NOT then bring all this nonsense into the realm of KB, going on about things that you do not have a clue about.

All these things put the SMC in a bad light, when in reality this entire mess comes down to one individual, yourself. You've dragged the club full of innocent people and an online forum into this massive debate, all because you got your panties in a twist.

In all seriousness, I would say that an apology to the people of the club especially, and even also to some people online, would not go astray.

Overall, no hard feelings from me, but just maybe for next time - Think before you Thread.

[Squiggles]

Only reason for my last post was the revival of this thread... i think ill lock this tomorrow

[shingo]

Only reason for my last post was the revival of this thread... i think ill lock this tomorrow

Good call Stephen. I'd say Andrew summed it up pretty well, nothing further really needs to be said.

[motorbyclist]

no, don't lock it! i'm waiting for dushi's rebuttal!

[ital916]

I'm not going to say much. As far as open face helmets go, I tell all who I talk to about the risk as they may lose their face, but if thats what they really want and accept the risk so be it. I wear a full face but on some days If I feel like wearing an open face I shall. Now if you don't like open face and have seen your uncle, your uncles uncle, your uncles uncles uncle or even your unborn child from the future getting there nose imploded then that is your view on them you don't have to wear them. The open face helmet was just an example that was used because thats what triggered the argument but it was not the backbone of my point. My point was on free will and opinons, how they collided and how they should be stated. I was trying to use O/F helmets as an example. I'm not going to say anything as It is pointless, I guess everyone who has their view will always fight for it. I concede that talking about this in the club is useless. By the way, I won't ride with minimal gear. I'll see you all later, Stephen lock the thread.

[ital916]

You've dragged the club full of innocent people and an online forum into this massive debate, all because you got your panties in a twist.

It's what happens in a club when a member has a disagreement to voice it. I didn't drag the whole club in, just the regular few who turn up. I've learnt that there's no point in voicing any kind of opinion in the club anymore. As far as an apology goes, I apologised if my posts came across as angry but at no point will you see me apologise for stating and believing in my views.

[Squiggles]

Trying to discuss/debate the issue at the time just eventuated in dushy bashing and a lot of stop stirring up shit. I'm sorry if my opinion didn't gel with that of the clubs but from the sounds of it a lot of club members need to pull their heads out of their asses. I admit I poke fun a lot in good jest but when serious issues arise I deal with it sensibly, a trait I can't see in many members. I don't mean to offend, but if that is how the club wishes to portray itself to the public, then I think the club will just a get a bad rep.

That is where you brought the club into this.

Fini.