Self-Serving Politicians

[Clockwork]

Greetings KBers :spudwave:
My first post on this (or any) forum. Thought I'd get somthing off my chest that I doubt too many of you will disagree with!

Generally, I pay little attention to the New Years honours lists, Its not that I don't think that those awarded are worthy, at the lower end of the award scale I am certain that the recipients have donated much of their time and effort without ever a thought of such recognition. But when it comes to the highest award in the land, the award available to no more than 20 living New Zealanders, the Order of New Zealand. Who do those politicians give it to..... One of their own!

Mr Jonathan Hunt. A politician with his nose in the trough since 1966! Who managed to spend $30,000 a year on taxi fares (until they gave him an appartment in parliament) and who is being further rewarded with a nice High Commissioner's salary and accommodation to supplement his meager parliamentary pension and subsidised airfares.

These buggers certainly know how to look after themselves, don't they?

[MSTRS:Me]

That's 2 things you got right. You joined us (welcome) & we agree about pollies. On the offchance there are any polly members here - START EARNING THAT DOSH

[James Deuce]

Jonathon Hunt is one of the few that has earned both his dosh and his award.

Bashing pollies is at the same level of behaviour as people with active jobs labelling "office' workers as soft.

If you know nothing about it then don't bash until you've done it. And believe me , most people on this site have no idea how hard cabinet members and CEOs have to work to "not earn" that money you all covet. Rod Deane when he was the CEO of Telecom was up at 4:30am, into the Wellington office for an hour by 6am, onto the plane to Auckland for a daily 10am management meeting, back to Wellington, and usually got home at 10pm at night. That was his DAILY routine, not the ocassional hard day at the office. Theresa Gattung's day will be similar.

Cabinet members have similar schedules. There are some backbenchers who never step up to the ball and work, but then again there are some with only minor Govt roles who work their arses off too. Peter Dunne, whose politics I loathe, works bloody hard for his constituency. I have two friends, both small business owners, who benefitted directly from Mr Dunne's aid, acting as a negotiator and court representative on their behalf against Oil Companies. They "won" in that they avoided having to take on massive debt to meet arbitrary decisions by those companies.

By all means discuss politics, but you'd be hard pressed to find active political figures who don't have a strong work ethic, even if it is raising their party or personal profile. THAT IS STILL HARD WORK.

[Motu]

Johnathon Hunt was my MP for many years,and I may have even voted for him a few times in dispare,I don't think you will find many people in New Lynn who will bad mouth him,he's worked bloody hard in the area nearly all his political life,and I think most will say congratulations on recognition for a job well done.

[MSTRS:Me]

I'm sure you are right (more cases than not) I wouldn't want to be an MP. I'm just spouting about the Donna Awetere types

[avgas]

Funny that i used to get up at 330 every morn to goto work on the end of a shovel only to get back home at 830 at night.
But that was a $10/hr job so mabey it wasnt as hard as a politicians work.

Mind due seen a few good policial minds in my time, ones that actually got some stuff moving - really stoked to see the govenator got the ball rolling on a few matters, i though he would fail horribly at his job.
As for a politician getting an award, good on em - mabey he can scratch his back with it.
One thing i learnt in NZ is the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer.

[James Deuce]

Funny that i used to get up at 330 every morn to goto work on the end of a shovel only to get back home at 830 at night.
But that was a $10/hr job so mabey it wasnt as hard as a politicians work.

Mind due seen a few good policial minds in my time, ones that actually got some stuff moving - really stoked to see the govenator got the ball rolling on a few matters, i though he would fail horribly at his job.
As for a politician getting an award, good on em - mabey he can scratch his back with it.
One thing i learnt in NZ is the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer.

So of course you have to perpetuate the argument, because you can't come up with a comeback that would require some effort. Cie la vie.

[jrandom]

One thing i learnt in NZ is the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer.

Meh. Bollocks.

As a poor person who's getting richer, allow me to point out that your perception is inaccurate.

No offense meant to your good self, and I haven't met you or anything, of course, but historically I've only ever heard this from, well, losers. Nobody living in NZ has any excuse (apart from bad health) for not living in precisely the way they want to.

If you want more money, well, go do something that will convince other people to line your pockets with it. If you couldn't care less, good on you for having your priorities right.

I have no patience with people bleating that the system has done them wrong.

[Posh Tourer :P]

You cannot argue with the disparity in percentage pay increases between the workers and the CEOs or the country and the MPs.

I'm not saying the MPs don't work hard for it, but how is the pay increase justified? Is it to bring them into line with the private sector? Will they admit to it?

As for workers vs CEOs, in the US in 1950, the differential was 50(?)x and it has now increased to 281x. In europe it was 9x, it is now something I can't remember, but its over 50x.

You can't tell me CEOs work 281 times harder than their workers.

[James Deuce]

You cannot argue with the disparity in percentage pay increases between the workers and the CEOs or the country and the MPs.

I'm not saying the MPs don't work hard for it, but how is the pay increase justified? Is it to bring them into line with the private sector? Will they admit to it?

As for workers vs CEOs, in the US in 1950, the differential was 50(?)x and it has now increased to 281x. In europe it was 9x, it is now something I can't remember, but its over 50x.

You can't tell me CEOs work 281 times harder than their workers.

No, but they made the opportunities for themselves that allow them to earn that. They will have also invariably sacrificed a whole load of stuff that you and I find important to get there. More important than the pay disparity as far as I'm concerned.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Man, I've made a lot of opportunities for me to be able to start as a DoC ranger on $24,000 a year. I've sacrificed many things other people find important to be able to do so.

So what?

[James Deuce]

Man, I've made a lot of opportunities for me to be able to start as a DoC ranger on $24,000 a year. I've sacrificed many things other people find important to be able to do so.

So what?

If you're trying to wind me up it worked.

If you're deliberately misreading what I've written, then meh. There's nothing to discuss because you've decided that dialogue is unimportant and you're right irrespective of anything I say.

[jrandom]

I think our main problem here is the attempt to apply a concept of 'fairness' that doesn't take real economics into account.

The fact is that all these CEOs and wotnot have enormous amounts of ability to screw things up.

It's easy to measure the commercial value of a factory worker, even (with a bit more stretching) an R&D engineer, say, and pay them accordingly.

But a Big Boss type can make or break hundreds of millions of dollars of business depending on which way they crook their little finger when they make a call. To put it more seriously, if the person at the top doesn't drive things right, NOTHING happens. Or even worse, BAD THINGS happen.

I know this because I've seen it work both for good and for evil, from a vantage point one or two levels down.

You can't analyse CEOs (or even politicians - the appointed CEOs of nations) by metrics of 'fair'.

If you own a company, your hopes of glory, riches and success rest on the shoulders of the man or woman you entrust it to, day by day. What price assurance? What price getting proven ability to do it right? Would you hand over anything up to several whole percent of your likely annual profits to someone who came with a very high likelihood of managing your business into success and prosperity?

Don't answer 'no' until you've been a major shareholder in or chairman of the board of a large company in a high-risk industry.

And *that's* why it's silly to talk about 'fair'. There is no 'fair'. There is only the Invisible Hand of Adam Smith.

[Yokai]

IAnd *that's* why it's silly to talk about 'fair'. There is no 'fair'. There is only the Invisible Hand of Adam Smith.

/me nods vigorously.

Workers are supposed to be paid according to the general worth of their jobs. Managers / artists / creative types are supposed to be paid according to the general worth of their talent + the general worth of their jobs.
CEO's / Politicians / Partners etc. are supposed to be paid according to the amount of RISK they take, Responsibility they have, the general worth of their ability and the general worth of their jobs.

The scales may seem out of whack to a lot of people, but frankly, I know how hard it is to do some active jobs. I also know that it would be as hard, if not harder for some very skilled active people to do my job. Hell - I wouldn't even WANT to do the CEO's job - not because I can't (cos I've messed with it before) but because I don't want the Risk or Responsibility.

{sarc} All Hail the Almighty Dollar. {/sarc}

[Motu]

No, but they made the opportunities for themselves that allow them to earn that. They will have also invariably sacrificed a whole load of stuff that you and I find important to get there. More important than the pay disparity as far as I'm concerned.

Not so much these days,but a lot of higher managment and politicions got there by birthright rather than any sacrifice on their part - good on em,I'd rather deal with the born rich than the selfmade man...they have more class....