The Power Crisis

[Jantar]

Clyde Dam: 432 MW, fully operational in 1992....

...I'm probably missing a couple of wind/geothermal. There are also reasonable amounts of generation in the process of installation, e.g. Stratford peaking, wind farms, some more geothermal etc.

Not a bad effort, and only a few minor changes required. eg McLachlan Geothermal and Poihipi are the same station. Although the nameplate rating is 55MW it shares the same steamfield with Wairakei and the resultant resource consent conditions and steam transfer limits mean that it is effectlvely a 41 MW station.

The main point about the list of new generation is that apart from the Manapouri Tailrace project, they are all baseload stations or wind farms which puts more stress on hydro storage. The total new does not make up for the total decommissioned plus natural demand increases.

[rphenix]

Eh? Who is to blame?
Power companies?
Planning regulations?
The Guvvmint?
A simple lack of rain?
All of the above?
Jantar probably knows all the answers.

Well theres been a few hydro dams etc proposed in the past but the Greens or someone usually veto's that idea so are we surprised were now in the shit?

Personally I can see why people have problem with Nuclear, or coal plants but buggered if I can see the downsides of a nice hydro dam sure a slightly elevated risk of flooding but how bad for the environment can a man made lake be?

Added bonus they make for good fishing and jet boating.

[Mikkel]

Nuclear reactors create heat, which is used to drive steam turbines. Unlike power plants which drive steam turbines off heat created by burning coal, oil or gas, nuclear reactors can't be easily turned up or down, on or off. They're best just fired up and left to happily fission their way through their fuel, uninterrupted, with any unwanted heat energy thrown away.

Whether this be indeed the case or not, producing excessive power can hardly be considered a problem!

Hell, if you need to direct it somewhere - how about putting in some rather large pumps moving water from the west coast up over the main divide and into the dwindling lakes on the east side to alleviate diminishing lake water levels?

Tiwai Pt smelter takes something like 15% of national power?I think was stated on the news.Also when minister David Cunliffe states no power outages this winter,who do you believe?

But Tiwai was the only justification for the Manapouri power station IIRC?

Yup. Park up a nuke sub and plug it into the power socket.
It also would have the advantage of making tree-hugging greenies have heart attacks!

Just buy the tail of an old Soviet nuclear sub and install the reactor somewhere... Heaps of cheap power for years to come

Actually we were a few guys from uni who were contemplating this as the base for a self-sufficient commune when we were about to leave university. Combined with some acres of barley, wheat, cannabis and fruit trees we thought we had a pretty good recipe for a never ending party and cheap hobbies (brewing, baking, distilling and mucking around with nuclear reactors... sounds like a decent life to me )

Pardon my ignorance Jantar that's interesting - when was the increase to 250 cumecs?

250 is a much nicer number than 100 - 100 is not only smaller it's also rather boring and, frankly, too common

At the end of the day - being more responsible with electricity (Energy efficient bulbs - turning off lights, wrap on the water cylinder etc) dosnt actually do any harm, and it saves you money.

Some of the power guys here at the electrical engineering department said something along the line that if everybody switched to energy-saving lightbulbs the whole grid was likely to get in trouble - something about the impedance of the fuckers having some sort of periodic time oscillation IIRC...

Not to be an arsehole, but what you call fully insulated houses down here we call cardboard boxes in Scandinavia. Some issues would be alleviated by introducing proper thermally insulating double glazing, rock/glasswool wall insulation and central heating (nuclear power plants are good for this as well I believe). Not just the power crisis - it would also improve general health, the 'nevermind the frost on the duvet, HTFU and wear another sweater' attitude actually doesn't do anything good for you in the long run...

I also believe that I heard somewhere that modern coal power plants are not exactly the polluting pigs they are made out to be...

[McDuck]

You guys forgot another 90 odd megawats at kawerau being commishioned in about a month and a half.

[Fooman]

The main point about the list of new generation is that apart from the Manapouri Tailrace project, they are all baseload stations or wind farms which puts more stress on hydro storage. The total new does not make up for the total decommissioned plus natural demand increases.

I would consider Whirinaki a peaker, along with the ghost of NP. I was astounded when the guys at Huntly told me Unit 6 was base load, but I guess if it makes a profit running that way, then so be it ( I have a couple of v. expensive bits from it on my desk as I write).

Quick query of MED data shows that ~2500 MW has been added after Clyde, in a total of ~9000 MW as of June 2007.

I've got little knowledge on the amount of generation been lost since then, maybe 700 to 900 MW based on davidreid's post, depending on how much of NP you consider as been decommissioned since then.

So anywhere from 18% to 20% of current (maximum) capacity has been added since 1992. Population growth and phone chargers (and 50" plasmas, and playstations and computers, and...) have a lot to answer for.

Cheers,
FM

[Tank]

Combined with some acres of barley, wheat, cannabis and fruit trees we thought we had a pretty good recipe for a never ending party and cheap hobbies (brewing, baking, distilling and mucking around with nuclear reactors... sounds like a decent life to me )

Now THATS how to throw a party.

Some of the power guys here at the electrical engineering department said something along the line that if everybody switched to energy-saving lightbulbs the whole grid was likely to get in trouble - something about the impedance of the fuckers having some sort of periodic time oscillation IIRC...

That is interesting. (runs off to read up just out of curiosity)

Not to be an arsehole, but what you call fully insulated houses down here we call cardboard boxes in Scandinavia. Some issues would be alleviated by introducing proper thermally insulating double glazing, rock/glasswool wall insulation and central heating (nuclear power plants are good for this as well I believe). Not just the power crisis - it would also improve general health, the 'nevermind the frost on the duvet, HTFU and wear another sweater' attitude actually doesn't do anything good for you in the long run...

That's not being an arsehole - that's just fact. Our insulation sucks - Id love to have a house built with the warmth / dryness of the one we had when I lived in the UK - its got to be so much better for your families health.

[Swoop]

by introducing proper thermally insulating double glazing

This requirement has been passed.
A drawback is the simple fact that the NZ Standard timber profiles used throughout the country (for decades) does not comply or provide a fitment for double glazing.
The only alternative is aluminium, which is a thermal conductor of outside temperatures.

[Mikkel]

This requirement has been passed.
A drawback is the simple fact that the NZ Standard timber profiles used throughout the country (for decades) does not comply or provide a fitment for double glazing.
The only alternative is aluminium, which is a thermal conductor of outside temperatures.

Oh, what I meant is that there is double glazing and then there's double glazing...

The stuff I have seen here in NZ are just two panes of glass mounted with an airgap between them.

If you do it properly you have a very precise and sealed gap between the panes either filled with a dry and inert gas (nitrogen being an obvious choice) or with a vacuum to provide a thermally barrier and no condensation. (and yes, I am aware that technically you don't fill a space with a vacuum )

Of course there are standardisation issues when designing such technologically demanding windows. As such the kiwi house building culture would need an overhaul since I believe, correct me if I am wrong, that currently most windows are custom cut to size as the architect envisioned. This is at least the impression I have got.

[Swoop]

Oh, what I meant is that there is double glazing and then there's double glazing...

The stuff I have seen here in NZ are just two panes of glass mounted with an airgap between them.

Undoubtedly these will exist around the place. Probably retrofits or something "devised" prior to the regulations being introduced.

If you do it properly you have a very precise and sealed gap between the panes either filled with a dry and inert gas (nitrogen being an obvious choice) or with a vacuum to provide a thermally barrier and no condensation.

It is done properly. They are sealed, DG units that are fitted, filled with inert gas. The glazing companies should be aware of this.

Of course there are standardisation issues when designing such technologically demanding windows. As such the kiwi house building culture would need an overhaul since I believe, correct me if I am wrong, that currently most windows are custom cut to size as the architect envisioned. This is at least the impression I have got.

You are quite correct. Designers (bastards, all of them!) do not have the idea that standardisation would allow cheaper production runs and hence cheaper housing prices.
A workmate has just spent 20k having aluminium joinery retrofitted to his house... he now says it is too hot and has to open the windows.

Architects and designers just want to build monuments to themselves.

As it stands, south island and as far north as the central plateau of the north island, require double glazed windows for new houses.

[Jantar]

I would consider Whirinaki a peaker, along with the ghost of NP. I was astounded when the guys at Huntly told me Unit 6 was base load, but I guess if it makes a profit running that way, then so be it ( I have a couple of v. expensive bits from it on my desk as I write).

Quick query of MED data shows that ~2500 MW has been added after Clyde, in a total of ~9000 MW as of June 2007.

I've got little knowledge on the amount of generation been lost since then, maybe 700 to 900 MW based on davidreid's post, depending on how much of NP you consider as been decommissioned since then.

So anywhere from 18% to 20% of current (maximum) capacity has been added since 1992. Population growth and phone chargers (and 50" plasmas, and playstations and computers, and...) have a lot to answer for.

Cheers,
FM

Yes, the new Whirinaki station was built as a peaker, but with the ramping it has been doing just this year, it is already having technical issues.

To update Davidreid's data:
POWER STATIONS DECOMISSIONED 1990-2008:
New Plymouth, 2007 (575 MW)
Stratford, 1999 (220 MW)
Marsden A, 1992 (120 MW)
Otahuhu A, 2002 (240 MW), but 140 MW was unavailable before the 1992 crisis
Whirinaki ‘a’, 2002 (216 MW)
Meremere, 1990 (140), 133 when operated as a coupled steam bus system.

One unit at New Plymouth has been recomissioned at 103 MW for this winter only.

I'll have to check the MED data, as the most generation I've ever seen offered is just under 7000 MW total, and around 400 MW of this must be kept for FIR. I know that the MED does use name plate ratings even if the plant can't ever reach that level of generation, but I believe they are really leading NZ for disaster if they are basing their planning on 9000 MW available generation.

[Mikkel]

It is done properly. They are sealed, DG units that are fitted, filled with inert gas. The glazing companies should be aware of this.

Good to hear - because I was having a bit of a snicker when I heard about the regulations about forcing people to build houses with double glazing if there were no sane regulations about what constitutes double glazing...

You are quite correct. Designers (bastards, all of them!) do not have the idea that standardisation would allow cheaper production runs and hence cheaper housing prices.
A workmate has just spent 20k having aluminium joinery retrofitted to his house... he now says it is too hot and has to open the windows.

It's crazy eh! But getting rid of the condensation and the black mold that seems to follow it is worth a lot though...

As it stands, south island and as far north as the central plateau of the north island, require double glazed windows for new houses.

That's good to hear. However, with proper foresight this should have been introduced 20 years ago and the power crisis might never have occurred. Ironically this is being introduced during an economical depression where house building is likely to be at a minimum.

[PrincessBandit]

So... what does a nuclear submarine do with all its excess power?

Haven't you ever seen all the dead fish left in their wake from the toxic farts they send out?

My power bill is iro $350 per month.

Crikey!!! I won't ever complain about ours again!

I remember the water shortage crisis about 16 years ago when it was all "if it's yellow let it mellow, if it's brown flush it down" and all that stuff (was gonna say shit but was a bit obvious..) We had a large water tank at the end of the garage for rain water and going out to lug bucket after bucket of water from that to put in the washing machine - the tops of my arms were never so trim and taut!!!
Doesn't seem to matter how good we are at turning things off and trying to be efficient our power bill just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

[SPman]

fuck you.

Why, thank you.


House designers in NZ and here in Aus should all be shot. They pay minor lip service to insulation - the minimum they can get away with, there's actually a higher level of insulation requirements in Aus, and don't seem to have a clue about energy efficient housing , so that housing in NZ is generally, crap!
Ohhh it's too expensive, no one can afford it! Bullshit! All it takes is a bit of thought and effort, cost increases are minimal over a standard box and there are a lot of people out there who do know how to put together an efficient, low energy requiring package.
Plus short term subsidisation, to encourage people into alternative power sources.
Here in West Aus, there is $3000 available towards replacing your electric water heater with solar, and $8000 subsidy for installing photo voltaic power - not a lot, but it helps, and, if they sort out the feed in tariffs, to make panels worthwhile, it'll be even better.

It's time the NZ government got of it's moribund arse, (either party) and actually looked at innovative longer term planning, instead of lurching from short term crisis, to short term crisis and if power shortages and expensive fuel are needed to stir the pot, good!

[avgas]

At least people out there like Jantar (and others) that have a clue have cleared up alot of misconceptions that are out there.
Just looking at my desk right now you can add the following Gen schemes:
- Ngawha
- Something at Pioneer Energy?
- West wind farm
- Mangaoi?
and a pile of others (...look there is Te Apiti refurbish.....)
Yes consumption has increase but now we are less reliant on Hydro now.

Now what else is there....
- Nuclear power can go as big or as small as you want (google pebblebed plants) and can be turned up or down as much as you want (google control rods). But the disadvantages is it doesn't like turning off and it has 'do-do's that last a very long time (half life's even ).
- The grid can handle alot more than we are using (1 DC link is currently disconnected from recall) - but some of it is not in the best condition, and alot of it is still inefficient (hense the DC link extension, and various powerlines being upgraded in voltage).
- Manapouri is a engineering achievement for NZ. I hope the old girl never gets decommisioned.
- The problem should sit with the consumer, why are people not telling you its a crisis - because they are SUPPLYING you. If they have issues they can charge you MORE. Consumers are the suckers here if they dont change their ways......Petrol Crisis anyone....

[Swoop]

That's good to hear. However, with proper foresight this should have been introduced 20 years ago

Unfortunately it was caused by Leaky building syndrome. More like crap designing, shit inspections and poor quality workmanship by carpenters.
Oh, also using untreated timber...