Shocking workmanship

[avgas]

CAVEAT EMPTOR

There you go boys and girls - you have it in a nut shell. Don't trust anyone who sells or services Ohlins shocks...........

[White trash]

The fact that Ohlins design their products to require proprietary tools for disassembly, thereby locking in most users to service agents chosen by the manufacturer, does not imply anything other than that Ohlins wish to tightly control the market's use of their product.

Every manufacturer does just that though mate, it's to ensure follow up business. Suzuki, Triumph, Harley, all the same. And that's just to name the manufacturers I've dealt with. Can't blame Ohlins for that.

I don't buy the "suspension is black magic" line. Any number of mechanical engineers throughout this country and many others operate as effective and knowledgeable engine tuners, and a high-performance internal combustion engine is not any less complicated or subtle than a suspension damping unit.

Agreed, it's nuts and bolts. But you'd rather your Lamborghini serviced by the chap trained at the factory rather than the blokes at Mag and Turbo who obviously know their performance car shit. Surely?

If there's any fundamental difference between products shipped by Yoshimura and products shipped by Ohlins other than the secretiveness, heavy-handed market tactics and utterly opaque pricing policies of the latter manufacturer, I'd like to know what it is.

I don't understand this bit sorry. What the hell you tryin to say? As with anything, you like something, you get told a price, you buy it or you don't. How's that opaque?

Frankly, your endless bombastic assertions without supporting data or logic are growing tiresome.

The fact that one particular mechanic managed to screw up servicing of some Ohlins products implies absolutely nothing in general terms, and the fact that you have not named the outfit you speak of leads me to believe that you're attempting to leverage an isolated incident to create general fear, uncertainty and doubt that will benefit your business.

Yeah but if you "name and shame" on here, you're then bombarded with people wanting to know why the hell you didn't take the issue up with those concerned. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

[HenryDorsetCase]

You're all missing the point: what about the bastard Moon, eh?

[Drew]

Ohlins products, in spite of your frequent assertions to the contrary, are not made from unobtanium.

The fact that Ohlins design their products to require proprietary tools for disassembly, thereby locking in most users to service agents chosen by the manufacturer, does not imply anything other than that Ohlins wish to tightly control the market's use of their product.

I don't buy the "suspension is black magic" line. Any number of mechanical engineers throughout this country and many others operate as effective and knowledgeable engine tuners, and a high-performance internal combustion engine is not any less complicated or subtle than a suspension damping unit.

If there's any fundamental difference between products shipped by Yoshimura and products shipped by Ohlins other than the secretiveness, heavy-handed market tactics and utterly opaque pricing policies of the latter manufacturer, I'd like to know what it is.

Frankly, your endless bombastic assertions without supporting data or logic are growing tiresome.

The fact that one particular mechanic managed to screw up servicing of some Ohlins products implies absolutely nothing in general terms, and the fact that you have not named the outfit you speak of leads me to believe that you're attempting to leverage an isolated incident to create general fear, uncertainty and doubt that will benefit your business.

Name and shame, if you have the evidence to do so, or STFU. A simple statement that Workshop XYZ has shown themselves unfit to service Ohlins products would suffice.

Often you make informed and funny replies, here you've just made a cock of yourself.

If it were so easy to work on suspension for mechanics, (who have mostly ALL been inside forks for one reason or another), why do they not do it more readily?

It aint hard to pull a fork apart, but doing it properly to change fluid and seals without making the mistakes RT outlines is key to the continued good performance of them.

Burn him!

Resorting to smart arse sarcastic digs to try getting others on your band wagon is pretty sad man. And I'm pretty sure, Robert is well busy enough at the moment without druming up business this way.

To sum up, ignore list it is for your pompus arse, at the very least it'll halve the number of new posts whenever I log in.

[cowpoos]

Often you make informed and funny replies, here you've just made a cock of yourself.

If it were so easy to work on suspension for mechanics, (who have mostly ALL been inside forks for one reason or another), why do they not do it more readily?

It aint hard to pull a fork apart, but doing it properly to change fluid and seals without making the mistakes RT outlines is key to the continued good performance of them.


Resorting to smart arse sarcastic digs to try getting others on your band wagon is pretty sad man. And I'm pretty sure, Robert is well busy enough at the moment without druming up business this way.

To sum up, ignore list it is for your pompus arse, at the very least it'll halve the number of new posts whenever I log in.

there is sooo much ironiy and hipocrisy in that post I just fell off the couch laughing...and may have shat a lil in the process!!! bwahahahahahaha!!

[Number One]

Frankly, your endless bombastic assertions without supporting data or logic are growing tiresome.

I don't understand terribly much of the 'technicalities' of this thread but I did get to see Bombastic used in a sentance!

So I am happy terribly Shaggy-like of you Mr random are you Semi fantastic too?

[Robert Taylor]

Just out of interest is it usually nessacery to flush/clean out a fork when just changing the oil.

I am talking about standard 93 ZXR400 forks. Thanks

Absolutely and if they are 93 vintage dont forget theres 15 years of use and wear

[McJim]

I'm so pleased to be blissfully free from the world of performance forks. In fact my entire bike is worth less than an Ohlins front end.

[Robert Taylor]

There's usually a build-up of crud in the oil, and sediment etc. in the bottom of the forks. Any bits that have worn off the fork internals (sliders, seals, etc.) and any water or dirt that may have found its way in, will be in the old oil. If the fork oil hasn't been changed since 93, there may also be a nasty emulsion of oil, water, etc. in there. If you don't want it contaminating the new oil, of course you need to clean them out.
No doubt Dr Taylor will be along soon to tell you what's the best thing to use, but most bike bits are cleaned with kerosene: the old oil is soluble in it, and it doesn't usually do any harm to anything. Whatever you use, you will need several rinses, moving the fork sliders up and down to stir it all around. Make sure too that the forks are left to drain thoroughly, as you don't want the new oil diluted by kero.

Yes we use kerosine as a first degrease followed by a very good proprietory contact cleaner that completely evaporates with no residue. Kerosine will still leave an oily film that can adversely react with the fork oil and degrade its performance.

[Robert Taylor]

Ohlins products, in spite of your frequent assertions to the contrary, are not made from unobtanium.

The fact that Ohlins design their products to require proprietary tools for disassembly, thereby locking in most users to service agents chosen by the manufacturer, does not imply anything other than that Ohlins wish to tightly control the market's use of their product.

I don't buy the "suspension is black magic" line. Any number of mechanical engineers throughout this country and many others operate as effective and knowledgeable engine tuners, and a high-performance internal combustion engine is not any less complicated or subtle than a suspension damping unit.

If there's any fundamental difference between products shipped by Yoshimura and products shipped by Ohlins other than the secretiveness, heavy-handed market tactics and utterly opaque pricing policies of the latter manufacturer, I'd like to know what it is.

Frankly, your endless bombastic assertions without supporting data or logic are growing tiresome.

The fact that one particular mechanic managed to screw up servicing of some Ohlins products implies absolutely nothing in general terms, and the fact that you have not named the outfit you speak of leads me to believe that you're attempting to leverage an isolated incident to create general fear, uncertainty and doubt that will benefit your business.

Name and shame, if you have the evidence to do so, or STFU. A simple statement that Workshop XYZ has shown themselves unfit to service Ohlins products would suffice.

I have NEVER made any assertion that Ohlins products are made of anything of the sort

Ohlins are not alone in making tools specific to their product, unless I came down in the last shower this is common in all fields of transport and engineering. Try pulling a set of ( for example ) GSXR1000 cartridges apart without some special tools and not make a meal of them ETC!!!!!!

Frankly I agree with tight control if it serves no purpose than to protect many from their own foolhardy ignorance. ''Bombastic'' if you like, but cold hard reality.

Shortly there is going to be a general price increase of 5% to Ohlins distributors worldwide, nothing opaque in that, it largely reflects the cost of many raw materials skyrocketing, and we all know the reasons for that are less than opaque. Notably also, Ohlins suppliers are not employing labourers at a pittance in battery hen like conditions as occurs in mainland Asia.

Publicly naming the dealer on a public forum, NO ( do you think Im stupid ) Leverage? No, just would like to think that the product I am responsible for in NZ is being serviced and repaired properly. And what in the hell is wrong with that?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????

[Robert Taylor]

Robert. Expecting all motorcyclists within N.Z to utilise the services of a pro like yourself with a corresponding wait time and expense is impractical.
Hydraulic shock absorbers are mechanically simple devices, and while the nuances of set-up escapes most Kiwi's most are going to'give it a go'

We have a number of service agents, no-one bothered to ask...............And in fact if the said dealer had bothered to contact me and was receptive to doing the job PROPERLY I would have run through the precautions involved, e-mailed them a copy of the workshop manual and loaned the appropriate tools for only the cost of courier recovery fees.
The fact that the dealer gave it a half hearted go, fitted low quality seals that failed in short order and damaged key components is unacceptable.
I beg to differ that ALL hydraulic shock absorbers are mechanically simple, the more you get involved with damping technology the more complex they become. Im talking here about top end suspension, not bargain basement mainland Asia ''chatter sticks''
We see stuff ups almost everyday because of the ''kiwi can do it mentality''

[Mikkel]

Ohlins are not alone in making tools specific to their product, unless I came down in the last shower this is common in all fields of transport and engineering. Try pulling a set of ( for example ) GSXR1000 cartridges apart without some special tools and not make a meal of them ETC!!!!!!

I can attest to that. I vividly remember the nightmare it was to take the 20 year old stock standard zxr250 forks apart to change oil and seals. Didn't flush them or take them totally apart - just enough to get the job done. Without the special tools for the job it was bloody difficult to do properly - lot of swearing and cursing. In retrospect I reckon that not fucking them up too badly was mainly due to equal portions of patience, thorough reading of the service manual and blind luck. Oh yeah, it took the two of us the better part of 10 hours to go through them...

No way I'm going to try my luck with the mean greenie's suspension!

[Crasherfromwayback]

there is sooo much ironiy and hipocrisy in that post I just fell off the couch laughing...and may have shat a lil in the process!!! bwahahahahahaha!!

Oi...I think Drew may have a crush on Robert!

[SixPackBack]

We have a number of service agents, no-one bothered to ask...............And in fact if the said dealer had bothered to contact me and was receptive to doing the job PROPERLY I would have run through the precautions involved, e-mailed them a copy of the workshop manual and loaned the appropriate tools for only the cost of courier recovery fees.
The fact that the dealer gave it a half hearted go, fitted low quality seals that failed in short order and damaged key components is unacceptable.
I beg to differ that ALL hydraulic shock absorbers are mechanically simple, the more you get involved with damping technology the more complex they become. Im talking here about top end suspension, not bargain basement mainland Asia ''chatter sticks''
We see stuff ups almost everyday because of the ''kiwi can do it mentality''

Are you willing to provide tools, workshop manuals and back-up for every Kiwi attempting DIY?...if not you offer rings a little hollow Robert. It would also seem that in being kind enough to offer this service many sets of tools, manuals etc would be needed-you would in effect become a philanthropist helping the poor and needy!
The core of the issue is money, we the motorcycling public cannot afford nor justify 10-30% of the motorcycles cost on shocks and requisite servicing, justifiably we have no choice but to seek other methods, as a business man I am sure you can appreciate this.
As for the complexity issue-a shock is a container containing oil and not much more. 'Fluid loss through an orifice' and 'pressure created as a resistance to flow' pretty much cover the technical side, couple that with attention to detail and your done.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Are you willing to provide tools, workshop manuals and back-up for every Kiwi attempting DIY?...if not you offer rings a little hollow Robert. It would also seem that in being kind enough to offer this service many sets of tools, manuals etc would be needed-you would in effect become a philanthropist helping the poor and needy!
The core of the issue is money, we the motorcycling public cannot afford nor justify 10-30% of the motorcycles cost on shocks and requisite servicing, justifiably we have no choice but to seek other methods, as a business man I am sure you can appreciate this.
As for the complexity issue-a shock is a container containing oil and not much more. 'Fluid loss through an orifice' and 'pressure created as a resistance to flow' pretty much cover the technical side, couple that with attention to detail and your done.

Oh dude. to use your analogy, a saturn five rocket motor is just two bags one containing oxygen, one hydrogen, give it a squeeze and light the blue touch paper and stand clear. The devil is in the detail and thats where the difference is.

Its kind of surprising to me that people DONT spend ten to thirty percent of the cost of a bike on the bits that will without question make the vehicle more pleasurable and safer to ride. People focus too much on the "motor" in motorcycle I guess.

Just apropos of this point, in PB magazine over the past few months they've run a feature on making a bike (2004 or 6 GSXR600) go as well on a track. If you read the articles, the single biggest improvements came with the suspension rebuilds (from memory Maxton rear and a rebuild with (again IIRC)
K Tech cartridges. the other thing was that in both front and rear they had two go-rounds to get it right.

Focus on the hardware side (why does widget X cost so much) ignores all of the value added stuff you get as well which is real, plus the "bling factor" which is in (my) head.