Clearly we are all filthy anti-semites

[imdying]

If you think that the whole story is funny and the Jews must just suck it up, I do not want you to be my friend anyhow. Thank you all for clarifying where you stand. SG out.

Yes, now fuck up yid or we'll make you suck on a shower head

[Shadows]

No, regardless of what you say about taking a piss, that was uncalled for. Very much so. Have courage to admit it. Let me ask you a question, if the ad were to say "we'll do business with everybody, even negroes", would you choose to be a patron of this business? I dare you.

Shit no - I would go near them if they deal with niggers!

[riffer]

Was that crime in the eyes of the Jewish faith, or just typical Kiwi pom-bashing?

I was always told it was the former. Hardly surprising. IMO the Jewish are the most racist of the lot.

[Sanx]

I was always told it was the former. Hardly surprising. IMO the Jewish are the most racist of the lot.

Yup. They are, generally...

[motorbyclist]

My issue is with Dor Shapira asserting that a poorly thought out advertising campaign reflects "a repugnant and negative mindset [in] the culture and political environment in New Zealand." I would like to see the research he has done to back this up. I would suggest he is engaging in the stereotyping he proports to abhor

yeah i was thinking that too..

i mean, prime is an aussie owned and run channel, so how does their advertisement reflect on NZ culture?


and wtf is on with people not being able to take a joke? i mean, do you REALLY think in this day and age NZ of all nations will start gassing jews? i mean, seriously? what's the harm in a smart-ass joke?

jews seem to share a common problem with maori's - whenever they get offended over a seemingly harmless transgression they go all nuts playing the race card while the rest of the nation rolls it's eyes and the net result is further damage to the group's reputation.

the main reason it's funny to see a jew joke is it's taboo - stop making a fuss and it wont be funny. better yet, lighten up

you'd be better off ensuring the safety of your people by stopping "ethnic cleansing" across the board, rather than antagonising the general populace whenever someone cracks a joke about jews

[jonbuoy]

He is. I don't know if they still do it now, but it used to be quite common to find a couple of Israeli lads (or ladettes) touring the Sth Is. after finishing their compulsory military service.

For some reason I always used to bump into them on those one lane road/rail bridges on the West Coast and would invariably end up helping them pick their bike up after they'd wedged a wheel in a railway line and tumbled to their doom.

Friendly to a fault, pleasant and interesting to talk to as well.

What a bizzar coincidence - you meeting every single Israeli person I've met.

[crynsie]

This goes a little , but stay with me...

i mean, prime is an aussie owned and run channel, so how does their advertisement reflect on NZ culture?

Prime has been owned by SKY for over 2 years now and all of the advertising / marketing (billboards etc) are done by a New Zealand agency.
I know because I work at Prime.

These billboards have done their job in getting people to talk about the show and hopefully people will tune in for (caution, blatant advertising coming...) Madmen on Sunday 22nd June at 8.30pm.
The more people tune in, the more Prime / SKY can charge for advertising and I may get a pay rise in September to buy more bike gear.


So everyone watch Prime!



(puts on flame retardant suit)

[Pedrostt500]

A lesson I learned years ago is if you are willing to take the piss out of your self, then others are less likly to take the piss out of you, and funnily enough I learned this leasson in the 70s when there were alot of Jew jokes around, then the Jews started telling jokes about them selves, that were funnier, and then the jew jokes stopped being funny unless being told by a Jew.
35 years on and it seams that the Jews / Israilies seem to have had a humour labotomy and cant see the funny side of life any more. I wonder if it is a case of that they have been at war for so long that they have forgotten what and who they are fighting, because I offten wonder what good ever comes out of Israil at this present time, what contributions to Humanity as a whole is made by that particurlar state, what motorbikes do they make?.
Kiwis dont mind being the butt of the joke in general as long as the joke teller realises pay backs are a bitch.

[Street Gerbil]

By harping on about all the bad things that have happened to the jewish people. The CONSTANT tirade of feel sorry for us, the nazis killed loads of our familes. The massaging of the figures..

Ok, work with me here. How many people shall we pretend never even existed to make you feel comfortable, Dave?

But most of all, you organised the hanging of people at Dachau only because they were members of the SS. As an ex member of the forces, it disgusts me that people would be hanged purely because of the unit they were in.

Oh, so Nuremberg Trials were one of those Jewish witch hunts. Thanks goodness, at least Germans do not share this opinion.

Edit.. And another thing.. The It shouldn't be allowed to happen again sentiment. It's happening now, in Africa. Why doesn't israel do something about it, to stop it happening? It has an army.. it has the money (thanks to america).. it has the tanks, etc. Or is it more of a It shouldn't be allowed to happen to usagain sentiment?

You know, Dave, I've been thinking a lot about that myself. Assuming hypothetically that Israeli Defense Forces are not needed to guard the gates at home, could you really imagine what the reaction of the world to such a sortie would be? Americans are now learning the hard way what happens to your reputation when you send an army to correct the injustices in some distant part of the globe. They are taking quite a pounding and they are not even Jewish. Get real! The intellectuals of the world would instantly accuse Israel in all conceivable (and otherwise) sins from expanding the "Liebensraum", to penis snatching. All Israel can do is send the unmarked aid packages to disaster zones, so that people being rescued won't feel bad for being saved with Jewish equipment. Of all the places, they were even asked not to send emergency teams to New York on 9/11 "to avoid possible tensions in a delicate situation".

how does [...] advertisement reflect on NZ culture?

I agree. It does not. Ad agencies are known for their gaffes, some worse than others. One of the other examples I remember, was a photo of a freshly slaughtered Bosnian guy in a pool of blood under the caption "United colors of Benetton". That one however caused an outrage of a global scale.

and wtf is on with people not being able to take a joke? i mean, do you REALLY think in this day and age NZ of all nations will start gassing jews? i mean, seriously? what's the harm in a smart-ass joke?

A good joke is something funny. A poor joke is based on a racial stereotype. I would not be happy about it but I wouldn't call it racist, just bad taste, but then ad agencies just do not know any better (see above). This ad, however, implies that one sub-group of human beings is less human than the rest, and the agency in question is actually so liberal and progressive (or desperate) that they are willing to do business even with that sub-group. That, mon ami, is no joke. My issue is not with the ad. I am perfectly satisfied that the ad was pulled and the apology was offered. My beef is with a reaction of a few folks here on KB to the article.
P.S. Flatcap, I started to see what you meant when I started getting PMs of support. Yes there are bad apples, as always, but the vast majority of Kiwis are nice blokes. Glad to agree with you on that one. Thank you guys for your support! It means heaps to me.

the main reason it's funny to see a jew joke is it's taboo - stop making a fuss and it wont be funny.

I welcome a good joke. As long as it is a joke and it is funny.

A lesson I learned years ago is if you are willing to take the piss out of your self, then others are less likly to take the piss out of you, and funnily enough I learned this leasson in the 70s when there were alot of Jew jokes around, then the Jews started telling jokes about them selves, that were funnier, and then the jew jokes stopped being funny unless being told by a Jew.

As above. I agree that making fun of one's own stereotypes defuses the situation, and those who follow my postings on this board know that I do that a lot, but some "jokes" are inherently not funny.

because I offten wonder what good ever comes out of Israil at this present time, what contributions to Humanity as a whole is made by that particurlar state, what motorbikes do they make?.

Guilty as charged. There is no Israeli made motorcycles. The best I can tell there is an incalculable number of scooters of all sizes, makes, and models, a certain percentage of hogs, a fair share of European and Japanese superbikes, and a few dozens of Goldwings. Google if you are interested in Israeli contribution to the humanity in science and technology. There is a plenty of articles about the Pentium lineup and Internet Explorer, and some really useful medicines, just to name a few. Not to mention our contribution to journalism - judging from the number of headlines we inspire, one can assume that Israel is the biggest and the most important country right in the middle of the world.

Kiwis dont mind being the butt of the joke in general as long as the joke teller realises pay backs are a bitch.

THere is that. During my recent trip to Australia, I was asked whether I find Aussie sheep more sexually attractive than the ones in NZ. I was so taken aback, I could only mutter "How the hell am I supposed to know? You guys are the experts" and that was it :-)))

[MisterD]

Ok, work with me here. How many people shall we pretend never even existed to make you feel comfortable, Dave?

How about the same number of victims of attempted genocides in Bosnia or Rwanda, added to the gays, gypsies, communists...who were also gassed by Mr Hitler.

The Jews don't have a monopoly on suffering and victimisation and the sooner they stop pretending otherwise the better disposed everyone else might be towrds them...

[Kickaha]

Americans are now learning the hard way what happens to your reputation when you send an army to correct the injustices in some distant part of the globe.

What injustice was the American army sent to correct? I hope you're not talking about Iraq?

[McJim]

THere is that. During my recent trip to Australia, I was asked whether I find Aussie sheep more sexually attractive than the ones in NZ. I was so taken aback, I could only mutter "How the hell am I supposed to know? You guys are the experts" and that was it :-)))

So you're telling me that Jewish New Zealanders are forbidden from 'Porking' Mutton?

[Street Gerbil]

So you're telling me that Jewish New Zealanders are forbidden from 'Porking' Mutton?

McJim, you can't be serious? How can we possibly "pork" it? That would not be kosher!!!

[Sanx]

A lot of the problem stems from the general belief of those who have a religion that because they follow a partcular religious creed, the belief should automatically be respected. Jews don't have the monopoly on this; arguably the Muslims are the worst proponents with calls for immediate death / censorship / apologies should anyone dare sully the name, reputation or memories of a certain sixth century merchant and paedophile. Last year, a British teacher in Sudan was arrested and threatened with jail and / or 40 lashes for allowing the class she taught to name a teddy bear "Mohammed". And I don't think anyone's forgotten the Danish cartoon madness.

Some Jews do, however, share the same tendency of getting very uptight when anyone questions their beliefs or the rationale behind them (usually non-existent, but that's one for the Scottish thread). Some Jews also do have a tendency to take the tag of "God's Chosen People" a little to literally, and I've often got the distinct impression that they look down upon anyone who doesn't happen to share their particular beliefs. I've witnessed this in my own family; from my mother's annoying habit of, when talking about some random person, saying "Did you know he's Jewish?" to other family members stand-offish treatment of my (nominally) Muslim wife.

In more recent years, the issue of the Nazi genocide has become intrinsically linked to the Jewish faith by that faith's proponents. There is an assertion that the world should never be allowed to forget what happened to the Jews under the Nazis. Anyone who questions it, or even some aspect of it, is immediately dismissed as a "holocaust-denier". Debate is simply not allowed. Whilst it is absolutely certain that millions died in appalling circumstances, there are many Jews who conveniently forget and therefore regard the deaths of homosexuals, gypsies, communists and anyone else who didn't happen to agree with the Nazis are less important than the deaths of Jews. More people died under Stalin than under Hitler, but their deaths don't rate a mention. Neither do the non-Jewish victims of the Khmer Rouge, Mao's purges, Pinochet, Idi Amin, Pap Doc Duvalier or the Hutu.

It is certainly true that Jews have been treated quite badly over the years. The stereotype of Jews being very tight with money probably stems from various Papal edicts starting in around 1100AD that banned Jews from many occupations. One of the few trades left to them was money-lending as usuary was condemned by the Vatican as being un-Christian. Given that the Catholic church labelled the Jews as Christ-killers, it was easy for priests to lay blame on the Jewish community for anything that happened to need a scapegoat. Largely ignorant populations simply believed whatever they were told by priests (ever wonder why priests refer to their congregations as their 'flock') and would then proceed to run the Jews out of town. Because this happened with such monotonous regularity, Jews tended to keep their money in a form that was easily transportable; gemstones were popular because of the high value-to-size ratio. To this day, the proportion of Jews in the big diamond cutting and polishing houses far outstrips the proportion in the local populations.

But some of the blame for the attitude of the local populations must lie fairly at the door of the Jews too. As a group, they are staggeringly insular, especially the more orthodox Ashkenazi (black hat and silly beard brigade) communities. There is little attempt to integrate with the host population, especially when compared to more recent immigrants; in the UK, for instance, compare the Indian community in Cheatham Hill in Manchester to the Jewish population. Even in liberal NZ, hardly a hotbed of Jewish orthodoxy, I've seen fathers refuse to attend their daughter's wedding because her husband-to-be wasn't Jewish. I've seen fathers engineer the dissolution of their son's engagement for the same reason. Two of my first cousins refused to come to my wedding, as it was on a Saturday - the Jewish Sabbath.

Jews have also suffered massacres at the hands of local populations over the centuries. In 1190, Jews took shelter from a violent mob in Clifford's Tower in the English city of York. Those that didn't die when the wooden tower was torched either took their own lives or were murdered by the mob outside.
German Jews were massacred by Crusaders in the early 13th century; many joined the Khazari Jews in Poland-Lithuania-Ukraine. Jews in that area became known, and hated for, their role in the Polish government; the collection of taxes and duties from the nobility and land-owners. With prompting from the Catholic church, the country's lower classes - including Ukrainian Cossacks - began to rise up against the ruling classes, and their agents, the Jews. The Cossacks, seeking to free their country from Polish rule, launched a series of uprisings in 1648 and 1649 that resulted in the deaths (in spectacularly horrific manners) of over 200,000 people, about half of which were Jewish. 350 years later, after the 1917 revolution, over 100,00 Jews were killed by their fellow Ukranians who still regarded the Jews as having undue financial influence and power. During WWII, many Ukranians collaborated with the Nazis in exterminating what was left of the Jewish population.

So it is against this background that the Jews might be regarded as having something of a valid persecution complex, and are therefore rather touchy about any threats made against their religion. It's brought about an us-against-the-world mentality, along with the far-from-groundless viewpoint that Jews have to stand up for themselves, because history has shown that no-one else will. And the way Israel behaves now is a good example of this mentality in action. Invaded four times by its Arab neighbours between independence in 1948 (independence brought about by the same kind of terrorism Israel now condemns), Israel now has military power that outstrips anything in the region, and it isn't afraid to use it to protect the country, no matter how nebulous that threat may be. They will viciously defend their country, and help fellow Jews, but show very little concern for anyone who isn't Jewish.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel mounted two huge operations to bring the Falasha to Israel to escape civil war and famine in Ethiopia. More than 120,000 Falasha emmigrated. Millions of non-Jewish Ethiopians died of starvation but Israel did very little to help. Once the Jews were out, involvement stopped.

Personally, I think if Jews stopped being so bloody precious about their religion, tolerated questioning and criticism, and stopped automatically linking being anti-Israel to being anti-semitic, they might find people's regard of Judaism and its followers increase. But while you have these over-the-top reactions to anything the most-touchy Jew finds slightly insulting, people's general perception of Jews will continue to fall. There is nothing more guaranteed to foster dislike of a minority than that minority's habit of thinking of themselves as being better than everyone else and automatically being deserving of respect because of who they are...

[Street Gerbil]

I am too lazy to answer to such a detailed posting, containing so much accurate and quite a bit of inaccurate information. Please forgive me for just highlighting just a few cherry-picked points.

A lot of the problem stems from the general belief of those who have a religion that because they follow a partcular religious creed, the belief should automatically be respected.

Here comes a leap from issues of ethnicity to faith. Sanx, I know it is your favorite subject, but what on earth has it got to do with the issue at hand?

In more recent years, the issue of the Nazi genocide has become intrinsically linked to the Jewish faith by that faith's proponents.

Wrong. It was never a question of faith, always of a lineage. Short version: "if you are jewish, half-jewish, or quarter-jewish, you are in a big fat trouble".

There is an assertion that the world should never be allowed to forget what happened to the Jews under the Nazis.

Why not? Forgetting history is the first step towards repeating it, you know.

There are many Jews who conveniently forget and therefore regard the deaths of homosexuals, gypsies, communists and anyone else who didn't happen to agree with the Nazis are less important than the deaths of Jews.

Bull. No one discounts their deaths.But consider this: Some were massacred in the framework of nazi eugenics program. Others were rounded up for being transients (i.e. leading a nomadic way of life). Only Jews were exterminated solely for having Jewish, half-Jewish, or quarter-Jewish blood. It was genocide in its strictest academic definition - an extermination of the ethnicity. Herein lies the difference.

More people died under Stalin than under Hitler, but their deaths don't rate a mention.

Here is something I agree with. It is a bit of a travesty. Germany was defeated, so saying it out loud was easy. No one on the other hand dared mention crimes perpetrated in Russia, especially given their contribution in the war against Nazi Germany. By the way, in terms of body count, Stalin did slightly worse than Hitler, if you do not take military losses during WWII into account. For almost entire period of his reign, Stalin was an equal opportunity murderer. He did plan a mass execution of Soviet Jews, but luckily, died hours before signing the order.

There is little attempt to integrate with the host population,

Does the term "Germans of Abrahamaic persuasion" ring a bell?

Two of my first cousins refused to come to my wedding, as it was on a Saturday - the Jewish Sabbath.

I am trully sorry, but are you quite sure that was the reason rather than an excuse? It is perfectly ok to attend a wedding during Shabbat, as long as you don't have to drive to get there. Nor there is a ban on attending non-Jewish weddings as long as it does not involve idol-worshiping (neither Christian, not Muslim traditions involve idol-worshiping according to Judaism).

independence brought about by the same kind of terrorism Israel now condemns)

Wrong. Only military objects were targeted. Authorities were always notified in advance to avoid collateral damage.

[Israelis] will viciously defend their country, and help fellow Jews, but show very little concern for anyone who isn't Jewish.

Again, not so (e.g. 90% of children from Tchernobyl were rehabilitated in Israel), but yes, most of the time they just airlift their own, as any other country would. If you blame Israel for that, why don't you criticize NZ embassy in China for not ordering to fill the planes bound for NZ with everybody in sight but rather rendering assistance to fellow Kiwis only?

Personally, I think if Jews stopped being so bloody precious about their religion

Jews believe that it was their faith that kept the people alive for the last 4000 years. Those were not the most user friendliest years as you said yourself. Why would not they be protective about the culture that they believe was instrumental to their survival?

tolerated questioning and criticism

Do you classify the particular ad that sparked this discussion as questioning or as criticism? There are boundaries. Besides, as I mentioned already, if the ad was mentioning anybody but Jews, there would have been a waterfall of apologies from the beehive the very next day. Just try to pull that sh!t with Maori.

and stopped automatically linking being anti-Israel to being anti-semitic,

Criticizing Israel is ok. Israelis are often quite vicious in their criticism of Israel. Singling out Israel for criticism and holding it to a different standard than everybody else is a textbook antisemitism.


The rest appears to be quite rational. Good job, Sanx! I disagree with you on oh so many levels, but at least you put rationale, rather than stereotypes and canards behind what you stand for. I respect that.