Safety and race-field size

[DEATH_INC.]

I know a few guys on older (early 00's) litre bikes that only hold it with guys on newer 600's.

Try it on an old 750
The problem with saying not 'fast enough, do clubmans' is that there is a cutoff time for clubmans too, you could easily end up between classes.
If I can ever afford to get down again (yeh I know, waa waa) I'd be pissed if I didn't qualify for any classes.....
I'm all for the 'fill the grid with the appropriate bikes, then top it up with cross entries' idea

[Ivan]

The only thing I can see is if the cross entrys dont get to go out at all some of them will uproar on wanting there money back.

I am a cross entry and would like the track time but also i go with the flow.

I think its a hard one really working out what to do as the club really is to over sized now, its at the stage of needing F3 a F3 B classes F2 a F2 B etc but there is no time to run these races bar the event of say running them in another class but then those classes are over subscribed as well...

And you have no classes to bump off the charts bar clubmans but then they are a class as well to so your stuck....

[White trash]

Perhaps Clive, a format similar to Tim Gibbes Suzuki Series of the late nineties might be the go.

"A" "B" and "C" grades. Based on lap times. Fair as fuck, can't argue with the stop watch.

[Tony.OK]

but to be bumped outta your field by guys cross entering seems dumb. .

Yeah with you on that 100%
I was thinking into the future when a class is overfilled with just its own class,then it'd have to be the 115% rule or something.

Try it on an old 750
I'm all for the 'fill the grid with the appropriate bikes, then top it up with cross entries' idea

Yep


What if the meetings got separated into 2 days but having half the classes run on separate days?Sat=F1/F2/F3 Sun=Motards/GP/post classsics etc.
That way there'd be plenty of track time and longer races
If there were enough entries then hopefully that'd cover extra track hirage.Volunteers would be the next problem

[CHOPPA]

Its looking like most believe the problem on the surface is cross entering classes which it probably is but please if your gonna change the cross entry rule have a look at the reason so many of us do it and come up with a solution to that problem ie less classes longer races.

A feature race like shaun was saying at the end of the day would be cool! maybe charge everyone who wants to enter $10 for that 1 race thats $350

1ST $200
2ND $100
3RD $50


BTW Im not complaining im more then happy with the series just the way it is!

[Grub]

But what would be the risk if we increased the field sizes? If we allowed up to 40 bikes.

Just a clarification confirmed tonight .... the grid numbers are determined by each circuit's licence. Taupo is allowed 40 on the grid, Manfield 35. so we are stuck with those numbers.

BTW .. excellent thread Clive and good stuff from everyone out of it

[lostinflyz]

is the 2 day thing really possible. as in could u have as many rounds considering you would need to book the track twice as much. would it be more practical to have an additional round or two (or three or four....) with some sort of restrictions on entries to give people a go. Its a compromise in a way i guess

not to mention the additional costs and people you have to hunt down to marshall the course.

[Petrolic]

first time racer here (so what do I know)and I had a thought, heaven forbid I get kicked out of clubmans bcos of my time and f1 is full where can I go on a litre bike??? When I see 600s in the f1. Do the 600s take f1 seriously or is it just more track time, I think we know the answer and I would do the same thing for 10 lowsey bucks . double the track time double the entry fee, sounds fare. I would be the first to get check book out but I am limited for classes on an r1...????

[Tony.OK]

first time racer here (so what do I know)and I had a thought, heaven forbid I get kicked out of clubmans bcos of my time and f1 is full where can I go on a litre bike??? When I see 600s in the f1. Do the 600s take f1 seriously or is it just more track time, I think we know the answer and I would do the same thing for 10 lowsey bucks . double the track time double the entry fee, sounds fare. I would be the first to get check book out but I am limited for classes on an r1...????

Seeing as there are six 600's in the top 10 spots,i think they are kinda serious.
Gonna have to do something about that though

[Grub]

Just keep in mind...
This series is club racing. If people cant race at these events, how would they ever get fast enough to race anywhere??

Exactly why we're having this discussion. A number here have raised the question of people being sent home without having a race. It would be fair to say that the reason we are having this discussion is because there's no way we want this to happen ... so we have to explore all of the alternatives to make sure it doesn't.

[roogazza]

Perhaps Clive, a format similar to Tim Gibbes Suzuki Series of the late nineties might be the go.

"A" "B" and "C" grades. Based on lap times. Fair as fuck, can't argue with the stop watch.

Excellent Mr Trash , the aussie system works doesn't it ? we'd have to contend with a few shattered egos though ?
But really stopping the cross entering would cure it for the mo. I see there are only 8 entries for pro twins again thats a bit sad, stick em in with me I don't give a shit who's out there. Gaz.

[Shaun]

Reverse Grid Races!!!! :d

Exciting, but a little unsafe really I think

[twinshock750]

has been an interesting read and it would seem the common theme coming through is:
1) You have first right of entry into your primary class
2) Remainder slots in that class by other bikes where allowed

Thus If I rode an R1/GSXR1000/ZX10 etc I'd be in F1.

If I had a GSXR600/R6/ZX6R etc - I'd be F2 and if space available, I'd have a shot at F1.

The thing that came to my mind though is that cross entry ishould be a "Bonus" because you might have a bike that allows it. However, remember, there are a bunch of guys ( ie an open class bikes in F1), don't have anywhere else they can cross enter to. So fairs fair for them

Which leads me me back to confirming my thoughts on points 1 & 2.

Reducing cross entry won't add space into your programme - as you will still be running the same number of races. just will be a little less pressure on qualifying for tose races that are "full"

[Clivoris]

This is so good to hear these ideas, especially as they seem to confirm that this is a difficult situation for the club and the riders that we need to be thinking about now before it becomes a crisis.

What About cracking down on bikes in post classics that are not eligable for instance 1991 VFR's an 1990-1991 ZXR's 400's that seem free to run??

This is a really good call monsta. I have had discussions with a couple of people experienced in the administration side of post classic racing (in an attempt to establish the legitimacy of my bike) and it would seem that at their meetings it is largely self policing. They all know what other guys are running and have a good idea of the legality of it. The VMC on the other hand are not as knowledgeable. If there was a formal complaint, we would follow up on it but until now have relied on the integrity of the riders. My bike is a case in point. It apparently qualifies because the model was actually manufactured in 1989 and able to be purchased despite being a 90 model. If challenged I would have to produce documentation confirming this, and thereby it's eligibility. It is the rider's responsibility to do this if challenged. My understanding is, that if we don't have the appropriate evidence, no entry. Best I get onto this. I think I will talk with the post classic geezers to see if there is a way that all post classic entries can be reviewed for validity, at the meeting. Is that nervous shuffling I hear?

As for grid sizes, I would think that the fact they're 6 lap races would mean that it's less important.

Track time is important to me, and if I couldn't double up I might not turn up. Not that this would be a huge loss to the club

As already noted, 35 is the max and out of our ability to change. Regarding track time, there is no way to know if the series will keep growing or if this is it. But if I was a gambling man, I'd be betting on further growth in road racing, in the immediate future. I certainly want to get my share of recreational fossil-fuel before it's all gone. It seems like we will have to choose between giving lots of classes a small bite of the apple, or a reduced number of classes a bigger bite each.

If 600's are stopped from going into F1 it would make the class more desireable and get more popular increasing numbers.

Why not make a feature or teams race with 1 race per event for the fastest riders on any bike? Then it wouldnt only favour f2. Like Paeroa King of streets etc grid positions of race lap times - that would give the quick guys in whatever class more race time if they choose. Not an original idea, but one that im sure would be popular and time efficient.

I'm not so sure about your first comment above. The second one is indeed a great idea, but normally we are lucky to get through the race program we have already. If we have to take a race away from a class to hold a king for the day race, who do we take it away from?

as someone just starting out if i showed up for a race and got told i wasn't in the top 35 and couldnt race in my class (be it f1, 2 or 3 or whatever) i doubt id show back up for your meetings.

Its fairly key to remember that these are club meetings and the only way to get faster is to go racing. No one wants to be told you have to go racing clubmans if you dont want to either.

In terms of solutions is there any reason that each rider can't nominate a single class as there primary and then nominate secondary classes so that the tracks always full. You are garanteed a spot in your primary class and that way can go racing where u belong. secondary classes filled as Vmcc sees fit be it fastest or first in the door.

No disrespect intended mate but if someone failed to qualify for their class and didn't come back because of this, it's probably the right decision for them. If they don't want to race clubmans and decide not to, it's the right decision. They obviously aren't as fast as they think they are and are too proud to work on it. Clubmans is the class where someone can run what they brung and develop some skills and learn about racing. Street stock is the other awesome class for this. The suggestion you have made at the end is where we are probably heading as an interim solution to some of the issues.

Try it on an old 750
The problem with saying not 'fast enough, do clubmans' is that there is a cutoff time for clubmans too, you could easily end up between classes.
If I can ever afford to get down again (yeh I know, waa waa) I'd be pissed if I didn't qualify for any classes.....
I'm all for the 'fill the grid with the appropriate bikes, then top it up with cross entries' idea

I think the odds of someone falling between classes is very slight. As others have noted, this is club-racing and we really do want to be inclusive and have a good time.

The only thing I can see is if the cross entrys dont get to go out at all some of them will uproar on wanting there money back.
I think its a hard one really working out what to do as the club really is to over sized now, its at the stage of needing F3 a F3 B classes F2 a F2 B etc but there is no time to run these races bar the event of say running them in another class but then those classes are over subscribed as well...

And you have no classes to bump off the charts bar clubmans but then they are a class as well to so your stuck....

Refunding entry fees if people fail to qualify just isn't going to happen. Stevie's history above put it into context well. It may be time to change with the times. There may be some pain involved. I also can't imagine that clubmans will ever be dropped as a class.

Perhaps Clive, a format similar to Tim Gibbes Suzuki Series of the late nineties might be the go.
"A" "B" and "C" grades. Based on lap times. Fair as fuck, can't argue with the stop watch.

The biggest problem with this is finding the time to run these races. I can imagine it happening if the growth keeps occurring but I am hoping that we can find a fair way to give everyone a crack, as it is. It would be smart of me to pick Mr Gibbes' brain about how this worked, number of classes etc. I keep forgetting that these old geezers have had the answers all the time. Didn't roadracingoldfart mumble something earlier?

Its looking like most believe the problem on the surface is cross entering classes which it probably is but please if your gonna change the cross entry rule have a look at the reason so many of us do it and come up with a solution to that problem ie less classes longer races.

A feature race like shaun was saying at the end of the day would be cool! maybe charge everyone who wants to enter $10 for that 1 race thats $350

1ST $200
2ND $100
3RD $50

BTW Im not complaining im more then happy with the series just the way it is!

Yep.

first time racer here (so what do I know)and I had a thought, heaven forbid I get kicked out of clubmans bcos of my time and f1 is full where can I go on a litre bike??? When I see 600s in the f1. Do the 600s take f1 seriously or is it just more track time, I think we know the answer and I would do the same thing for 10 lowsey bucks . double the track time double the entry fee, sounds fare. I would be the first to get check book out but I am limited for classes on an r1...????

Many of us have had a similar dilemna. I know many racers who have ditched the big road-bike so they can afford a dedicated race-bike in a class that suits them better. Tough choices.

[steveyb]

Time bracket or Grade racing is an idea that comes around every so often, and might be seen as a panacea to the current problems.
In many ways it might be, but of course there are problems with it also.

SCRRS ended up with 7 brackets as my dusty memory recalls, or was it 8?
A, B+, B, C+, C, D+ and D I think (happy to be corrected).

It makes it very easy to find a place for virtually any rider/racer within a group of apparent peers. But it makes it virtually impossible to create a proper championship when riders who are on the cusp of any bracket improve enough during the season and really should be moved to a different bracket.

If a rider improves by 10-20 sec/lap over the season it is clearly unfair for them to remain in the bracket in which they started. So what do you do about their championship points?

It is also a problem for any afficianados who want to see peered machines racing against each other. For the general viewer this is no problem as it is bikes against bikes, all good.

The BIG problem comes when you have machines that get around the circuit very differently coming up against one another. E.G. It is easily possible for a good 125 rider to lap Manfeild in 1:16-1:13 or even better. But many clubman 1000 riders will be doing similar lap times. BUT along the straights the 125s are doing 60-75% of the speed of the 1000's. SuperMotos vs other bikes create similar problems and GP vs Prod bikes in the corners. These immense speed differences create potential for major calamities. It has not happened in the past in racing at Manfeild but has at Pukekohe. This is the major reasons for not favouring grade racing as it has been identified as a potential removable hazard, and if it were to happen then VMCC committee could be held liable.

I will also add my personal view point on first timers and clubmans racers as reinforced by Clive earlier.

If you end up not qualifying for your class and end up not racing (which as is pointed out time and again when this subject comes up, is VERY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN AS THE CLUB IS INCLUSIVE and will try its best to find a place for you) and you decide that is that and don't come back, then the sport is unlikely to be worse off for it, because you clearly don't want to try hard enough to improve your skill base.

There are places and times for you to train (trackdays in racebike class) so if you make the decision to chuck it in because of that, then as Delboy said to our mate Rob "Maybe this isn't for you ay?"

My other gripe while I am at it: Why the fuck are some of you novices racing (and I use the word advisedly) R1's and the like as a novice??? I know, I know, I've heard all the excuses. I firmly believe it is inappropriate, for any rider of any age. As I said earlier, are you really racing, or just riding around?

There, spleen vented. But keep up the thinking, eventually a best practice solution will be found that suits the majority.

Cheers

Steve