Safety and race-field size

[Clivoris]

Some of you may not be aware that I am a member of the Victoria MC committee. We have a policy of restricting the size of race fields at Manfield to 35, in an effort to restrict the chaos and carnage, i.e. make things as safe as we can. This thread is not being started on behalf of the Victoria MC, it is an attempt to do some of my thinking online and take advantage of the KB membership to get some feedback.

Many of you will be aware that the Actrix Winter Series is growing like Jack's stalk of beans. This means that in some of the heavily subscribed races it is likely that some racers will not qualify in the top 35. The supplementary regulations state that "Non qualifying riders will not be moved into an alternative class. Appeals at Clerk's discretion." In practice, this has not often been necessary, as despite 40 bikes being entered there are the inevitably riders who end up not being able to make the meeting, and those who have dnfs on the day. When required, the Clerk has found space for people.

Is there anyone out there in cyberland who has any thoughts about how we might manage the over-subscription?

The reality is that much of it is due to the ease of cross-entry for a paltry $10. F2 into F1, Post Classic Senior into F1, Many F3 400s into Pre 89, F3 into F2 etc. It would seem to make sense that where someone is cross-entered into an oversubscribed class, that those for whom it is their primary or only class, get priority. What would competitors think of a situation where all those only entered into F1 qualify as a matter of course (assuming they are within the 115%) with the rest of the field being made up of the fastest cross-entries? Is there another fairer solution that eludes me? Is it just tough titties if you don't qualify and you should have entered Clubmans? Should we just stop accepting entries once we get to 35? It might mean the entries get in nice and early.

Another pressure point is the necessity of running multiple classes together in the one race because of limited time. Post classic senior, junior, pre82 and pre89 all together; F3 and pro twins. How can we accomodate all our classes in a one day meeting? A suggestion that rears it's head every now and then, is dropping one of the less full classes. Bags not me to make that decision. All the classes are growing and valid. Another suggestion has been to have Super Motards and maybe Street Stocks running on the Manfield extension at the same time as the rest of the meeting. This would have it's logistical and other challenges but it is possible. We would need to have someone who is keen on growing motard racing step up and explore this. Are you there?

What about 2 day meetings? Probably more expense and more difficult for racers, supporters and volunteers in our time poor world.

I fully support the practice of restricting field size. But what would be the risk if we increased the field sizes? If we allowed up to 40 bikes, if they qualify within 115% of fastest qualifier; would this be any more risky than the top 35 qualifiers regardless of lap-time? As a past volunteer, I can testify to the increased sense of chaos that happens with large fields at club racing.

Once again, I am pushing this out there to harvest some ideas. This may or may not go back to the committee for discussion, but I would like to ensure that we are thinking of options and solutions. Please remember that we are all unpaid volunteers, barely coping with the organising of this series as it is. Any extra demand on time or personal resources, is likely to require more people on board.

[Shaun]

Eliminate 600 from the SB class, OR at least eliminate enough 600 bikes, to allow all sb to try and Qualify

You could elimnate 600 riders based on the riding history?

I know this is not a big help, but a thought at least

[Shaun]

18 TRUE SB entered in the class! Sorry 600 riders, back to you own class now maybe?

Guess this groth is good for the sport though, try to be positive about the growth

I also noted there is a TZ125 entered in the Derik Hill class? Should that be in there?

[ArcherWC]

It would seem to make sense that where someone is cross-entered into an oversubscribed class, that those for whom it is their primary or only class, get priority. What would competitors think of a situation where all those only entered into F1 qualify as a matter of course (assuming they are within the 115%) with the rest of the field being made up of the fastest cross-entries?


^^^This makes the most sence to me.^^^

if you increase the field sizes, you are just delaying the problem rather than fixing it

[Shaun]

all SV 650 bikes to be removed from the Derik Hill Class as well, and put back in with the Pro Twins for now, these grids are huge, and bloody well done to all in the club. The Vic club series has been the best in NZ for ever

[FROSTY:Me]

Cut and dry really isn't it?
either enforce the 115% rule or the first past the post rule.
Being as its a club series--ie grass roots stuff then id say first past the post--ie fastest 35 bikes.
Would reducing the classes you can enter on any one bike help?
In other words given that feilds are indeed huge why not enforce a one bike /one class rule?

[Deano]

I would have no problem with being restricted to one class. I only entered F2 on my pro twin for shits and giggles and to show up some of the 600's.

[quallman1234]

I also noted there is a TZ125 entered in the Derik Hill class? Should that be in there?

According to the MNZ rules thats fine. I know a certain glen skectchy qualified in the top 10 on a 125 in F2

[Nicksta]

tough one Clive as in club level its all about giving everyone a chance isant it? and to get more people into racing.
i'm with you guys so far on cross entering... i think F1 bikes should have precedent over F2 in the F1 race and 600 have it over 650's in F2 for example. someone eligable for F1 should be able to race their class and not worry about a faster F2 bike kicking them out.

I think the road race spectacular limited cross entering by stating, you may enter a different class but on a different bike... Like what I do... I have the CBR for postys and VFR for F3... that would cut back cross entering!

If you want to accommodate everone and cross entering... in the long run we may all have to face a 2 day event... which in itself will weed out those not as committed as others.

[Tony.OK]

It would seem to make sense that where someone is cross-entered into an oversubscribed class, that those for whom it is their primary or only class, get priority. What would competitors think of a situation where all those only entered into F1 qualify as a matter of course (assuming they are within the 115%) with the rest of the field being made up of the fastest cross-entries?


^^^This makes the most sence to me.^^^

if you increase the field sizes, you are just delaying the problem rather than fixing it

Wot he said..........................For F1 at least that leaves 17 spots open for the fastest F2 riders,start grids would need to either go from fastest times for both(safest) or the F2 grid up behind the F1(not so safe).

Same would work with any cross entries really

[CHOPPA]

I think for sure that in lets say F1 that all F1 bikes get priority to the grid and the 600 riders get the rest of the spots but i as long as the grid positions for the 35 riders is still determined by lap times

The main reason i cross enter is to get more riding, if they cut down on classes made no cross entering and run longer races that would sort the problem

They cant really change it now though cause what would happen if 35 sbk riders turned up all the 600 riders would lose there decent positions in the points series

[steveyb]

In many ways this is the best situation that the sport could possibly be in.
How to manage too many people wanting to do it? Great!!

We are now REALLY going to have to look outside our box for solutions, and this will mean examining the solutions found overseas and adapting them to our environment here. In the UK for example at BemCee and MRO meetings (which are almost now the VMCC comparison) there is no such thing as cross entering (at least in the main part). As a competitor you decide what you want to ride, select the appropriate class and stick with it. The US is the same.
This invariably means that you get one or two races per weekend. And you must qualify. If you don't, the only place you are going is into the stands to watch, end of story. You enter knowing that is the case. If you don't meet the standard, you need to go somewhere else to practice until you can meet the standard.

But of course their populations are higher and therefore they have more people wanting to do it. But we are now almost in the same situation.

Let us have some perspective on why we have the situation we now have at VMCC.

Some years ago (early-mid 90's) the numbers of people in the sport were falling dramatically even though we had at least 3 clubs running racing meetings at Manfeild and elsewhere around the place. Then Mr and Mrs Gibbes launched the Suzuki Central RoadRace series and things started to turn the corner. There was a short term attendance problem for VMCC due to SCRRS but the products were different enough that many riders decided to opt for one over the other, but SCRRS seemed to be the preferred supplier.

Numbers at VMCC meetings were so low that in order to make the grids viable cross-entering was encouraged and the karts were invited along to help pay for the events.

After a while the VMCC series lifted its game to meet the market and numbers picked up and then the SCRRS folded for a variety of reasons (the viability or attractiveness of the product I reckon was NOT one of them). So the riders started to come back more and more to VMCC.

So then time became precious, so VMCC needed to uninvite the karts and now space is precious, so maybe cross entering needs to be un-invited also.

So, I agree with the suggestion that PRIMARY entrants into a class get priority over cross-entered classes where classes are oversubscribed.

The issue of course boils down to the fact that riders want to ride all day long and want to get it all for one low entry fee.

My answers to this are three fold:
1) If you can ride more than one class then I believe that you are not riding hard enough, or are superfit. I am no super athelete (Dodgy Simy can vouch for that), but after finding out how hard I had to ride to win a round of NZ SBK 250GP and how buggered I was afterwards, I know that all the racing I had done previously was really just riding around. Are you there to race and race properly, or is it really just a glorified trackday for you? Do you really give 101% in every lap? If not, are you really racing, or just practicing each lap? And this applies to EVERYONE, not just the front runners. Why are you there? Think about that.

2) We have too many classes. This means that the meetings become totally time poor and we are left with 6 lap races. Whatever! 6 laps?? It is not long enough to really test anyone but the best first lap riders.

3) Two day meetings. I know this is the most difficult, if not impossible part of it, but that is how Bemcee and MRO are run in the UK and it works for them, why not for us? Yes, there are many reasons why not, but it is a possible solution at some time in the future.

Another part of the issue is the tacit agreement that VMCC run under F1 and F2 rules, rather than Superbike and Sports Production (Supersport). The former was done to allow all the 'special' bikes out there a place to compete, the latter very clearly legislates the types of machines that can be run. Actually 600cc bikes are probably not legal for Formula 1 anyway, but traditionally there have been insufficient Superbikes to make that class viable, so 600's and other bikes (250GP)have been allowed in. If VMCC adopted the MNZ class structures then there could be no confusion. But then where would all the others go? There are now perhaps enough Superbikes to make this a viable consideration.

I've said enough for now, lunch break is over.

Cheers

Steve

[bistard]

Hey Clive,good question,but the answer should be the fastest 35 bikes,no arguement
At least if the riders decide to move up from the Vic Club meetings & go to the nationals,they wont be disapointed,as the rules will be the same,you have to qualify
It is a sad fact that some people will miss out,they either go to another class,or even better go faster next time & qualify
If you start swapping & changing the rules,expections will also change,so you will get the"You did it for so & so,why not me"
I keep thinking back to the PC world we now live in where,kids at school there are no winners & losers,they dont pass or fail exams,its bull shit,harden up,this is life & there will be disapointment!!

[wharfy]

It would seem to make sense that where someone is cross-entered into an oversubscribed class, that those for whom it is their primary or only class, get priority. What would competitors think of a situation where all those only entered into F1 qualify as a matter of course (assuming they are within the 115%) with the rest of the field being made up of the fastest cross-entries?


^^^This makes the most sence to me.^^^

if you increase the field sizes, you are just delaying the problem rather than fixing it

This makes the most sense to me too.

If you don't get into a cross entered class you get your $10 back ?
(lucky I'm still in clubman's :-)

[wharfy]

Hey Clive,good question,but the answer should be the fastest 35 bikes,no arguement
At least if the riders decide to move up from the Vic Club meetings & go to the nationals,they wont be disapointed,as the rules will be the same,you have to qualify
It is a sad fact that some people will miss out,they either go to another class,or even better go faster next time & qualify
If you start swapping & changing the rules,expections will also change,so you will get the"You did it for so & so,why not me"
I keep thinking back to the PC world we now live in where,kids at school there are no winners & losers,they dont pass or fail exams,its bull shit,harden up,this is life & there will be disapointment!!

School is about learning the subjects - not how to be a double hard bastard.

Racing is supposed to be "safe, fair and fun".
1/ Limiting the grid makes it safe.
2/ The 115% rule makes it safe
3/ Letting the people who have that class as there primary one have first crack (provided 1 & 2 are met) makes it fair
4/ Allowing other classes to fill in rest of the places should keep it fun

Soften up a bit :-)

MCNZ Production Superbike Regulations
Rule 1 Capacity
700cc ñ Open 4-stroke 3 & 4 Cylinder
800cc ñ Open 4-stroke Twin Cylinder


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