So who's the terrorist again?

[mstriumph]

yet if they ALL laid down their arms there would be peace ... i am by no means suggesting that the arabs are innocents in this, but i am very tired of israels continual "we are the victim here" line.

......................yes they do justify all this by the occasional suicide bombing, or poorly directed rocket attack ... so surely their replies are not terroristic ...

found this research http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0....html#abstract and http://www.som.yale.edu/faculty/ehk1..._SCT_color.pdf to suggest that preventative arrests are more effective in lowering the suicide bombing rate than killings ...... so israel's tactics don't seem at all appropriate ...

------ however, I scarcely think that 85 suicide bombings 2001-2003 can be termed "the occasional suicide bombing"?

[mstriumph]

...................
There are two labels minorities or the poor receive when they decide to stand-up and fight back, terrorists or revolutionaries, it all depends what side of the fence you sit on............

yes - except i'm not sure that the majority of ordinary people on EITHER side of the border we are talking about actually WANT to be at war with each other in a struggle that seems both futile and endless ......... i think the 'terrorists' on either side are NOT the mass of those ordinary people

[Street Gerbil]

yet if they ALL laid down their arms there would be peace ... i am by no means suggesting that the arabs are innocents in this, but i am very tired of israels continual "we are the victim here" line.

Israelis arent starving,

I apologize for that.

they arent getting their houses bulldozed,

We need to distinguish two reasons of house demolitions in Israel:
1) Illegally built structures are torn down regardless of who owns them. Try building something without a permit in Auckland and you will see that this policy is not Israel specific.

2) As a deterrence against terrorism. It is unpleasant, but, Arabs do love their dwellings. You have absolutely no idea how many lives were saved because residents turned in a would be suicide bomber to protect their houses. Sorry, but human lives are more valuable than houses.

i guess starvation doesnt count as terrorism

Arafat died a rich man. Ever considered his business strategy?

i guess bulldozing family homes doesnt count as terrorism either

See above.

illegal detention and "interrorgation" surely wouldn't be classed as terror

I am not sure to what y are you referring to as "illegal detention", but as for interrogations, let us theoretise for a moment: you have an information that terrorist group such and such has successfully transferred a suicide terrorist inside the country and he intends to attack a crowded area within an hour. You have one of the accomplices under arrest and he knows what the target is. Asking nicely does not help. Your action?

building a giant wall and controlling freedom of movement

Wall sucks, except for the fact that terrorist attacks dropped 95% since its erection.

shooting at crowds of youths with high velocity firearms for throwing stones at tanks? ... well i guess a stone could cause a bruise, that deserves to be shot in the head i guess

Unfortunately, correspondents who publish in the Independent (and whose articles are being reprinted in NZ Herald) tend to wear eyeglasses of very unusual construction - they allow seeing everything in the room except the elephant. The crowds you are referring to are more typically comprised of a mixture of stone-throwing youths paid approx 1 dollar for participation in the show (and apparently threatened with unpleasant things if they refuse), young activists armed with molotov cocktails, and quite a few sharpshooters.

helicopter strikes causing considerable "collateral" damage/deaths

Using human shields and launching missiles from densely populated areas tend to cause collateral damage and tragically Israel's adversaries see the value in civilian deaths and force inhabitants to remain in the vicinity of their rocket launchers. Thank goodness it starts to backfire and people are actively resisting launch crews.

yes they do justify all this by the occasional suicide bombing

It has become occasional because of all those things you are condemning. Such as good intel, effective army and police, tight borders etc.

or poorly directed rocket attack ... so surely their replies are not terroristic ...

So it is their fault that PA Arabs cannot manufacture more precise missiles? Death is death, regardless of precision.

[Jez]

yes all of those points you make are quite understandable ...

however i still stand by my statement that Israel are not the innocents they make themselves out to be ... the articles mstriumph linked make for very interesting reading (although they are very long )

Basically Israels targeted killings of suspected terrorists have the side-effect of creating more terrorists, as well as killing civilians (80 civs to 119 terrorists), thus making it a futile excercise.

If every action has an opposite an equal reaction, then it would stand true that every violent action has an opposite and equal violent reaction.

Neither side is innocent in this conflict by any stretch of the imagination. The Israelis do what they feel they have to do to retain their security, unfortunately this includes the collective punishment of the entire Gaza Strip by witholding electrical supply, one of humanities basic needs (without electricity our motorcycles wouldn't have been built). The Palestinians do what they feel they have to do to get back what has been taken from them, unfortunately this includes suicide bombers hitting soft targets (they dont have any helicopters or laser guided missles).

It would be nice if both sides stopped blaming the other side for starting it, it's a bit past that, and started making serious concessions on BOTH sides. Actions such as the Israeli blockade of Gaza and statements like those made by Hamas who refuse to recognise Israel, will never assist the peace process.

[SPman]

Unfortunately, correspondents who publish in the Independent (and whose articles are being reprinted in NZ Herald) tend to wear eyeglasses of very unusual construction - they allow seeing everything in the room except the elephant.
.

Would this be referring to Robert Fisk, who has lived much of his life in Lebanon and has an intimate and first hand knowledge of "the other side" ie not a fly in, fly out embedded with the troops type journalist!
So - how are their eyeglasses different from the hacks who churn out copy for "our","non partisan, non biased, truth seeking" media outlets?

[Street Gerbil]

preventative arrests are more effective in lowering the suicide bombing rate than killings ...... so israel's tactics don't seem at all appropriate

Unfortunately, the events of the last few hours perfectly illustrate why keeping unrepentant terrorists alive is a bad idea.
A travesty of justice was committed today and for Israel there will be a hell to pay for it.

[mstriumph]

................It would be nice if both sides stopped blaming the other side for starting it, it's a bit past that, and started making serious concessions on BOTH sides. Actions such as the Israeli blockade of Gaza and statements like those made by Hamas who refuse to recognise Israel, will never assist the peace process.

yes, yes and YES!!!!

[jonbuoy]

the country might be broke but the rich and powerful are richer and powerfuller

"That little Roman empire is down the gurgler mate."

I hope you're right



but i hope you're right:

Great news - so who will take over? China, Russia, Africa? I'd rather have the US of A as the world police and overall superpower. The US don't want Muslim fundamentalists having access to nuclear or biological weapons because they are crazy enough to actually use them. Even Hitler was reluctant to use WOMD. They try not to get involved in other skirmishes or civil wars - like Rwanda for example, a million or so killed but it had no affect on any other country or global stabilisation.

[Street Gerbil]

Here is just a little sample of how the public opinion of Israel is formed by media. This is what happened and this is how AP (and NZ Herald) have reported it.
Here are some quotes of particular interest:

...Israel was to turn over five Lebanese prisoners to Lebanon's Hizbollah guerrilla group - including a militant convicted in an attack perceived in Israel as particularly monstrous.
...burst into the apartment of Danny Haran, herding him and his 4-year-old daughter out of the house at gunpoint to the beach below, where they were killed.

Note the gentle and sanitized treatment. And surprisingly not a word on a hero welcome in Lebanon... Of course, it may make them look bad.
Even the name was mutated from "Kuntar" sounding like you-know-what to neutral-sounding "Kantar"
This is the account of the survivor of what really happened. Even some lebanese are disgusted.
Now take a moment to think that this treatment is applied to every piece of news published about the region. Please answer honestly: can it be that one's opinion as to what really goes on may be just a bit skewed?

[Jez]

a bit skewed??? coming from a person that links directly to israeli newspapers???

i havent bought a paper in NZ for over 12 years, and I tend to only watch the sports news.

I am not advocating the terrorists in any way what-so-ever ... all I am saying is that many actions Israel have taken over the past 30 years + have done about as much to improve peace and stability in the region as a suicide bombing at a bus station in Israel which killed 40 people and injured 130+ ...

[Street Gerbil]

a bit skewed??? coming from a person that links directly to israeli newspapers???

You are right. I should have emphasized "a bit skewed" as an ironic note. "Extremely distorted" would be a lot more precise description. Sorry for the link to the Israeli newspaper. Here is the link to the similar article published elsewhere.
But think of it. Your opinion is formed by events such as killing of al-Durrah (falsified), Jenin massacre (never happened), UN ambulance incident (faked). Don't you see the pattern here???

As for your charge, yes, Israel is guilty of many things, but not those that you refer to. At least criticize where criticism is due.
The real trouble started with so called "peace process" in 1991, when a newly elected radical left Israeli government (Rabin-Peres) decided that the time is ripe for a "peace settlement" and decided to crown a person who from one side will be authoritative enough to unite all the factions within the territories, but on the other hand will be docile and grateful for helping him out of oblivion and to the top of pecking order. You guessed who was their man of choice. Except they miscalculated the docile and grateful part. The morons even thought that they can solve the problem of Jerusalem by renaming Abu-Dis to "el-Kuds". As the first order of business, Arafat ordered execution of all "traitors to the palestinian cause" i.e. pro-peace-with-Israel mukhtars (community leaders). Some of the deaths were actually blamed on Israelis. That's Middle East for fuck's sake! Why show weakness by gibber-jabbering, making concessions, and making agreements with the enemy, when he could have it all??? An unprecedented wave of terror attacks unseated the government (the "victims of Peace" was a particularly unhelpful remark), but it was too late to pull the plug. It was a betrayal of those sensible souls who could have actually signed and enforced a sensible peace agreement. Israel is paying a huge price for this betrayal, and will keep paying in blood for that cruel and unusual punishment for many years to come.

Now that Israel has badly fucked over all friendly or at least relatively non-hostile palestinians, it was the turn to screw the pooch on a different front. In 2000, if memory serves me right, another freshly elected well-meaning amateur cowboy politician Mr. Yehud Barak decided to solve the gordian knot in Lebanon. Widely advertised graceful withdrawal under his command turned into uncontrolled flight with infrastructure, equipment, arms, and classified documents being left behind. Nature abhors vacuum and Hezb took over. This time it was SLA, the friendlies in Lebanon, who paid in blood for Israel's backstabbing. Some were given refuge in Israel but most were rounded up by Hezb. Their fate was unpleasant.
As a result of those two abominable acts, there isn't many sympathetic souls left in Lebanon, and certainly none in PA.

[Jez]

My main point of argument against Israeli tactics is the collective punishment they use in the blockade of Gaza which was increased in January 2008. Collective Punishment is classed as a war crime within the Fourth Geneva Convention. 1.5million people live in Gaza, 1million of which are refugees ... Israel allow 60-100 lorries per day to supply all of these people with the basics, the list of goods is strictly limited by Israel to absolute basics.

Independant Paper on the Gaza Blockade 2008

Some signs of it easing after 6 months

Collective punishments

Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions collective punishments are a war crime. By collective punishment, the drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World Wars I and II. In the First World War, Germans executed Belgian villagers in mass retribution for resistance activity. In World War II, Nazis carried out a form of collective punishment to suppress resistance. Entire villages or towns or districts were held responsible for any resistance activity that took place there. The conventions, to counter this, reiterated the principle of individual responsibility. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) Commentary to the conventions states that parties to a conflict often would resort to "intimidatory measures to terrorize the population" in hopes of preventing hostile acts, but such practices "strike at guilty and innocent alike. They are opposed to all principles based on humanity and justice."

Additional Protocol II of 1977 explicitly forbids collective punishment. But as fewer states have ratified this protocol than GCIV, GCIV Article 33. is the one more commonly quoted.

I don't think we will see Israel taken to task over this though in all honesty.

[Street Gerbil]

Mon ami, if you don't like me using Israeli sources, why do you offer me links to al-Jazeerah?

My main point of argument against Israeli tactics is the collective punishment...
[I]Collective punishments

Article 33.

Sorry, mate, does not apply. Your main argument is flawed.
First off you are greatly exaggerating an extent of the blockade. At all stages Israel allowed enough supplies to avert the humanitarian crisis. As for alleged collective punishment, you are confusing a refusal to supply aid with criminal harm.
Collective punishment, as detailed in the Convention, forbids imposition of a criminal or military punishment on some people for the crimes committed by others. Which means hostage taking, decimations, and suchlike. Refusal to trade does not fall under the category. It is neither criminal nor military action. Furthermore, prevention of access to goods is not a collective punishment either. It is a non-violent act of self-defense against daily missile attacks, and Israel, like every other state, whether you like it or not, has the right to defend itself against acts of war perpetrated daily from Gaza. Many countries have practiced such sanctions against their adversaries, but for some reason it was ok as long as Israel was not involved. Example: blockade of Cuba.

Withholding of electricity falls under the category allowed under article 52 of 1977 Amendment. It explicitly allows attacks on strategic resources. The idea behind this rationing is to force the Hamas government to decide over priorities of electricity supply to hospitals vs. missile manufacturing plants. Same goes for limiting the supply of gasoline.

Israel allow 60-100 lorries per day to supply all of these people with the basics, the list of goods is strictly limited by Israel to absolute basics.

...in strict adherence to rules and provisions of the Geneva Convention, requiring Israel only to permit passage of food, clothing, and medicines intended for children under fifteen, expectant mothers, and maternity cases (Article 23).

If there is collective punishment it on the other side of the fence. Tell me, do daily missile attacks on civilian population of Sderot (and government sponsored celebrations when they kill and maim) constitute collective punishment. Yes or no?

[Jez]

the al-jazeerah source was showing that Israel are easing the blockade, which in turn i thought was showing the positive side of Israels actions, i felt they could have twisted the words to suit any agendas they may have had ... i didnt see a "due to Hamas' decision to not bow to Israeli pressure" line in that article.

the other article was an independantly researched paper which i felt was more biased than the al-jazeera article

Again i will say the terror tactics used by various Palestinian factions over time have been abhorrent, however tactics used by the Israelis have also been terrible, developing a hatred amongst the youth making them want to grow up to be martyrs, i doubt the recruitment teams employed by the terrorists have to do much to convince them when the Israelis bulldozed their house when they were 7 for example.

I doubt we are going to convince each other of our own arguments, you believe Israel are justified in every action they take, I feel the Palestinians got the short end of the stick 60 years ago when Israel was formed and have been marginalised since, they fight back with whatever means they have at their disposal, just like the Israelis. If either side want to blame anyone for the events unfolding today, perhaps they should look at the British government, and the League of Nations who made the decision to give the Israelis that land in 1948.

[Street Gerbil]

I am not denying that there isn't much fun being a palestinian, but whose fault is that? First of, have you ever thought as to how did it happen that there are two types of Arabs in the area: israeli arabs and palestinian arabs? Hint: in 1948 arab military command has instructed the local population to get out of the way so not to interfere with the slaughter of the Jews and return for the spoils of war after the victory. Israeli government begged them to stay. Some stayed, some left. Guess who was who? The unlucky 600000 who left for Syria and Jordan found themselves behind the locked gates. A decision was made not to let them back in. Was it inhumane? Probably, but would any other country act differently? Would New Zealand let me re-enter if I were to prove myself disloyal? At the same time roughly the same number of Jews from diaspora in various arab countries was purged. Mughrabi Jews were relieved of possessions and thrown out. Israel took them all in. What happened to "palestinians"? (I use the term loosely because until 1967 the term "palestinian" referred to the older generation of Israelis born in the mandate territories) They were not welcome anywhere. Their neighbors who tried to outspeak each other as the greatest champions of palestinian rights intentionally kept them in misery to use as human weapons against Israel. Gaza and West bank were under control of Egypt and Jordan for quite a while. Have you ever considered, why the conquerors never let palestinians establish their own state while those territories were under their control? Moreover, when Israel won those territories back, and offered to return them together with all inhabitants, in exchange for a peace treaty, why the answer from both parties was "thanks, but, no thanks!"? If arab countries were truly concerned with the wellbeing of palestinians, they would have considered expelled Jews and Arabs not allowed to return as a population exchange, and would have let palestinians settle on their territories and become legitimate members of society. Except they knew better than to do that.
To summarize all that, yes palestinians paid a heavy price for relying on their brethren across the border but I do not believe that under the circumstances, Israel could have done anything differently. If anything, it is a fault of those arab leaders who refused them citizenship, thus turning them into refugees, and of the UN that perpetuated their refugee status by creating a special concept of a "palestinian refugee". Did you know that according to UN definition, a "refugee" is a person displaced from a zone of military conflict, whereas "palestinian refugee" is a person claiming to being a resident of mandate territories between 1946 and 1948 and all of his descendants?


An argument is made, that one does not make peace with friends, but rather with enemies. Well, there are different kinds of enemies. Until recently, Israel has dealt with the kind of reasonable enemies who could be reasoned with. Both sides disliked each other intensely, but each side realized that their adversary is not going anywhere. Things have dramatically changed starting from early nineties. Present generation is being brainwashed from earliest childhood. They are being taught that their purpose in life is to be one of the "million martyrs marching on el-Kuds" ("holy" in Arabic, i.e. Jerusalem). They are taught that Israelis are not humans but "sons of apes and pigs". They are subjected to propaganda TV programs such as this one.
Judge for yourself







If a teacher was to tell you in the kindergarten that your neighbor is not human and your purpose in life is to murder him and to take over his property, would you have reason to doubt it? I know at age 5 I would have bought it hook, line, and sinker.
Look at the celebrations taking place in Gaza. Does the celebration in honor of a person who drowned a father in front of a 4 year old kid and then killed a 4 year old girl with his bare hands tell you something?

Can one make peace with a neighbor who are mad at him? By all means!
Can one make peace with a neighbor who was brainwashed into firm belief that you have no right to exist and that he has a god-given right to everything you've earned? Tsk tsk tsk...

I am all for peace and a fair settlement between palestinians and Israel, but realistically, if today's government (the one that celebrated release of Kuntar) were to repudiate their indoctrination (pass the Tui, will you), Israel can start sensible peace talks when today's 5 years olds will die of good old age.