So who's the terrorist again?

[alanzs]

A lawn jockey:

[Street Gerbil]

Looking at the mounting evidence from unbiased sources (multi award winning Aussie John Pilger is a good read on a variety of the worlds troublespots,

Pilger is unbiased?!! As in pants-on-fire-Pilger? Tui moment.

or Amnesty International, or the Israeli censures by the UN ) the truth is inescapable if you are prepared to see it.

I can see the "truth" you are referring to only if I choose to believe Pilger and pilgers, rather than my very own lying eyes. But please tell me how do you know with such a certainty that I am wrong and Pilgers and Dwyers' are right? I lived in the region for many years. Have you been to the region and witnessed what really happened happening? I know I have.

[Jez]

the problem with this entire discussion is that to take one side or the other requires such hard headed devotion to their respective cause that it completely closes their eyes to any countering arguments.

much like the conflict itself:

• you were put her in my neck of the woods
• im gonna fire some missles at you
• im gonna bulldoze your house
• im gonna send some suicide bombers into your busstops
• im gonna use helicopters to blow you up
• im gonna fire more missles
• im gonna blockade a city
• so on and so forth

Both sides in the conflict in question have very strong propaganda machines, Israel use money and power within the US to sway many publication and television companies to their point of view, while the Palestinians play up to the camera in front of independent journalists very well.

the net result of this discussion will be that everyone retains their point of view, but will feel agrieved at someone else questioning that point of view.

Beef Soup is great for helping you get over a cold btw

[Street Gerbil]

the net result of this discussion will be that everyone retains their point of view, but will feel agrieved at someone else questioning that point of view.

The sad truth is that opinion about Israel is formed by media organizations who know that reporting any newspiece sympathetic to Israel or critical to its adversaries may cost them accreditation in Arab countries. Whoever said that stick and carrot approach does not work.
As far as I know, myself and Terbang are the only ones on the forum who actually have been there (however we do hold opposite opinions in regards to the conflict), but everyone seems to know for certain what's going on. Unfortunately, with NZ Herald using such notorious organizations as AFP and the Independent as sole sources for ME coverage, I am not surprised...

Beef Soup is great for helping you get over a cold btw

I daresay chicken soup is even better.

[Jez]

I daresay chicken soup is even better.

i really am not a fan of chicken ... im sticking with beef!!!

[pete376403]

Pilger is unbiased?!! As in pants-on-fire-Pilger? Tui moment. I .

Go to http://www.honestreporting.com/a/team.asp - I would suggest that the people listed there are as biased as they claim John Pilger is, in their own way

[terbang]

As far as I know, myself and Terbang are the only ones on the forum who actually have been there (however we do hold opposite opinions in regards to the conflict).

Sir I do respect that. I´m sitting on the sideline on this one.

[slowpoke]

Pilger is unbiased?!! As in pants-on-fire-Pilger? Tui moment.



I can see the "truth" you are referring to only if I choose to believe Pilger and pilgers, rather than my very own lying eyes. But please tell me how do you know with such a certainty that I am wrong and Pilgers and Dwyers' are right? I lived in the region for many years. Have you been to the region and witnessed what really happened happening? I know I have.

(Deleted)

Edit: following Terbang's extremely appropriate post below I've modified some of the "spruiking" that I'd previously written. Hopefully it's more talking to you rather than at you....no this isn't a Tui ad! My apologies for the previously written codswallop......

(deleted)

No I haven't lived in the area, but not many of us had to go to Apartheid South Africa to know that that was also a travesty, the same goes for events in Zimbabwe etc, and so it seems with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. While I have no doubt that you have perfectly valid first hand impressions of the situation I wonder how truly balanced your experience there was.

To my mind it just seems blatantly wrong that the IDF wade in with their armoured bulldozers, tanks, attack helicopters, F16's etc against...against...well I'm not sure really 'cos the Palestinian's seem to have fuck all. There is no policing involved in the raids, it's not a war....it's just a slaughter. That's not even taking into account the displacing of an indigenous people from their ancestral lands and the ensuing harrassment and humiliation.......

How do I "know" Pilger, Chomsky and co are right? I don't "know" anything...but once you start looking, weighing the evidence from first hand accounts, and independent sources, the conclusion seems obvious. Even Israeli's are speaking out against their government's policy's despite the obvious risk that accompanies such a stance.

Go to http://www.honestreporting.com/a/team.asp - I would suggest that the people listed there are as biased as they claim John Pilger is, in their own way

Exactly. Following the airing of the above mentioned documentary ("Palestine is still the issue") an investigation was carried out by the Independent Television Commission due to the pro-Israeli lobby screaming it's condemnation......and Pilger's work was not only vindicated but praised by this independent body:

From: MediaLens Media Alerts (Edited for brevity, full article here: http://theconversation.org/modules.p...rder=0&thold=0)

Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 9:16 AM

Subject: Pilger Film Vindicated

MEDIA LENS: Correcting for the distorted vision of the corporate media

Following a three-month enquiry, the Independent Television Commission (ITC) has published (January 14, 2003) its adjudication, rejecting complaints against Pilger's documentary. The report praises the film's journalistic integrity and refers to the "care and thoroughness with which [the film] was researched", adding:

"The ITC raised with Carlton all the significant areas of inaccuracy critics of the programme alleged and the broadcaster answered them by reference to a range of historical texts. The ITC is not a tribunal of fact and is particularly aware of the difficulties of verifying 'historical fact' but the comprehensiveness and authority of Carlton's sources were persuasive, not least because many appeared to be of Israeli origin." (ITC Report: Palestine is Still the Issue: a Special Report by John Pilger, Monday 16 September. 11.05pm. ITV, Carlton, January 14, 2003)

In the Guardian, Tim Llewellyn, formerly BBC Middle East correspondent, writes:

"Pilger is known as an opinionated journalist with an appetite for upsetting authority. But this programme was not 'campaigning' journalism. It was a painstaking portrayal of the humiliation Israel's soldiers and politicians visit daily o­n the Palestinians: not just the deaths, injuries and arrests, but the intrusions of the military into every aspect of a Palestinian's life." (Llewellyn, 'False witnesses - ITC approval of John Pilger's documentary is a shot across the bows of mainstream Middle East coverage', The Guardian, January 16, 2003)"

[terbang]

I think what street gerbil is trying to say, hence part the reason I am staying away as well, is there are some here informed by media, pub talk or whatever, who jump in here and aggressively push their semi informed opinions clearly displaying little knowledge of the real situation and it´s history. Why use all the strong opinionated language if you haven´t been there? Just join the debate and you may learn.
To me that indicates that they are the ones who have already had their heads stuck in the sand for some time.
However there are also some here that seem to want to find out more about what the middle east issues are all about, and believe me, its complex and I3 is closer than you think with some of his views, he is intelligent and also has the balls to stand up and have his say. Which is more than what can be said for the morons who posted the tags on this thread. Those who hurl abuse as their only form of debate also speak volumes about their IQ and how informed they are on the subject.
Behind all the chest beating there also seems to be some semblance of informed debate keeping the thread alive.
Remember, some of the biggest lessons in life can be learned whilst in the hands of those you would not call your friends.

[slowpoke]

I think what street gerbil is trying to say, hence part the reason I am staying away as well, is there are some here informed by media, pub talk or whatever, who jump in here and aggressively push their semi informed opinions clearly displaying little knowledge of the real situation and it´s history. Why use all the strong opinionated language if you haven´t been there? Just join the debate and you may learn.
To me that indicates that they are the ones who have already had their heads stuck in the sand for some time.
However there are also some here that seem to want to find out more about what the middle east issues are all about, and believe me, its complex and I3 is closer than you think with some of his views, he is intelligent and also has the balls to stand up and have his say. Which is more than what can be said for the morons who posted the tags on this thread. Those who hurl abuse as their only form of debate also speak volumes about their IQ and how informed they are on the subject.
Behind all the chest beating there also seems to be some semblance of informed debate keeping the thread alive.
Remember, some of the biggest lessons in life can be learned whilst in the hands of those you would not call your friends.

Thanks, wise words indeed (made me reassess my previous post).

Following on from your I3 comment: he's a cluey bugger alright. I've never met the guy but he's certainly made me think about a few things, often from a different perspective. If something/someone makes you think it's gotta be a good thing.

[Sanx]

I'm going to address the paragraphs back-to-front:

From www.islamicity.com: "Islam is not a new religion, but the same truth that God revealed through all His prophets to every people. For a fifth of the world's population, Islam is both a religion and a complete way of life. Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy, and forgiveness, and the majority have nothing to do with the extremely grave events which have come to be associated with their faith."

Truth? Nope, just some people's version of it. Although it's certainly one of the larger religions (and more worryingly, the fastest growing of all the major religions), you'll notice that the majority of its adherents are in third world countries, or countries that up until relatively recently were third-world. In countries where the standard of education is poor, or universal education isn't available, having religious schools - Madrassahs - provide free education is a very attractive proposition for many parents, even if the education does revolve around by-rote learning of the entire koran and religious hate-filled indoctrination by the mad mullahs in charge.

Whilst many muslims do live their lives peacefully and in harmony with the community they live in (as I should know; I'm married to one) there are disproportionally far more when compared to other religions, that don't. (The exception is probably orthodox jews, but they tend to be insular rather than militant.) For many, islam is not a religion of peace and tolerance, but a religion that revolves around the venomous hatred of anyone who isn't muslim, or doesn't follow their particular interpretation of islam. Tolerance of others, especially if they attack islam (or are perceived to be attacking it), is woefully lacking.

Salman Rushdie was placed into protective custody after Ayotollah Khomeni issued a death sentence against him (after due process, of course!) for the crime of writing a novel that happened to feature an unsavoury character called Mohammad. The UK's self-styled Muslim Parliament, stated that it was the duty of every British muslim to kill Rushdie if he was found. You can also look at the number of honour killings that are carried out each year in the UK by fathers or brothers seeking to cleanse their family's honour by killing their own daughter for such heinous sins as kissing a non-Muslim.

And in those countries where islam is predominant and relgious law reigns, the application of forgiveness and mercy is rarely seen. Just look up Amnesty International's archives of crimes against young girls in places like Saudi, where the death penalty (by stoning) exists for adultery, even if the girl is raped.

Can you imagine what would have happened in a muslim country if a bunch of white europeans had marched on the capital carrying slogans threatening muslims and their way of life? Such countries suppress dissent with quite ruthless authority, and that's just on fellow muslims. Other groups are regularly just silenced by more permanent means.

Tolerance? Forgiveness? Mercy? Fuck off.

There's a world of difference (excuse the pun) between targeting Europe the locale, and Europeans generally. And don't think all Muslims have the same goals as their outer fringe dwellers, that would be like thinking all Christians think like George Dubya.

What is the difference exactly? The majority of the population of Europe are ... oh look! ... Europeans. Attacking Europe necessarily means an attack on its citizens. Or weren't the July 7th bombings in London or Madrid train bombs aimed at hurting people?

I'm sure many muslims don't share the same viewpoint as their deranged islamist cousins, but in countries that are predominantly muslim, sharia law generally ends up on the statute books. That is the problem with islam; it's not just a religion, it's regarded by its adherents as an all-pervading way of life. And they expect others to adhere to it as well, no matter if they happen to follow islam too. It's when a group start to impose their belief on me that I get really pissed off. Islamists telling everyone that we must respect their religion (and by implication, the illiterate paedophile merchant who started it) under threat of death is taking that to an extreme, and any self-respecting person should fight very hard against that.

[terbang]

I And they expect others to adhere to it as well, no matter if they happen to follow islam too.

Not entirely true there mate. I am a full resident of Saudi Arabia, probably the most strict enforcers of the islamic law. Whilst it is wise for me to be respectful of their ways, as I should in any other country, they do not expect me to speak Arabic (how many times do you hear the old kiwi cry ´if the wanna come over here then learn english´), become a muslim or even dress like them. They are very mindful of our different ways, especially with regard to our day to day interaction with our women and show a lot of tolerance and respect to our ways. Give and take really. Living in Saudi Arabia as a western, christian is quite a pleasant experience with a nice and easy lifestyle.

[alanzs]

Not entirely true there mate. I am a full resident of Saudi Arabia, probably the most strict enforcers of the islamic law. Whilst it is wise for me to be respectful of their ways, as I should in any other country, they do not expect me to speak Arabic (how many times do you hear the old kiwi cry ´if the wanna come over here then learn english´), become a muslim or even dress like them. They are very mindful of our different ways, especially with regard to our day to day interaction with our women and show a lot of tolerance and respect to our ways. Give and take really. Living in Saudi Arabia as a western, christian is quite a pleasant experience with a nice and easy lifestyle.

Nothing like a little reality check to pop the bubbles of the ignorant. Thanks for the perspective!

[Sanx]

Not entirely true there mate. I am a full resident of Saudi Arabia, probably the most strict enforcers of the islamic law. Whilst it is wise for me to be respectful of their ways, as I should in any other country, they do not expect me to speak Arabic (how many times do you hear the old kiwi cry ´if the wanna come over here then learn english´), become a muslim or even dress like them. They are very mindful of our different ways, especially with regard to our day to day interaction with our women and show a lot of tolerance and respect to our ways. Give and take really. Living in Saudi Arabia as a western, christian is quite a pleasant experience with a nice and easy lifestyle.

Are you living in a western compound, or in one of the cities? And are you in Jeddah, by any chance?

Whilst I certainly can't question the authenticity of what you say, it is very different from what I've heard from others, including my father when he worked there not so long ago.

But, perhaps you can tell me this; in NZ, or any other western country, can you be:

• Arrested, tried and executed for persuading a muslim to be baptised as a christian?
• Arrested, tried and executed for stating that Mohammad was, for instance, an illiterate paedophile?
• If you're female, arrested for lewd behaviour and sentenced to lashes for not wearing a head-scarf when outside one's house?
• If you're female, arrested for the mere act of driving?
• Sentenced to lashes (at best) for talking to an unmarried woman who is not a relative? (Obviously, this would be an unmarried Saudi muslim woman, who was not a relative, and it would have to be outside of a compound.)
• Sentenced to death by stoning for talking to an unmarried man who is not a relative?
• Arrested and sentenced to lashes for the possession of alcohol (outside of a compound)?
• Sentenced to death for being raped, as the religious police count it as adultery?

I don't know what you do in Saudi or in what circumstances you live, but it is far from a tolerant place. They might tolerate you not speaking Arabic, not dressing like them and not believing in the same religion, but that's nothing compared to the tolerance automatically afforded to immigrants in western countries. The Saudis will accept your culture and beliefs, provided it does not inconvenience them in the slightest and that those beliefs do not conflict with their own.

[SPman]

For many, islam is not a religion of peace and tolerance, but a religion that revolves around the venomous hatred of anyone who isn't muslim, or doesn't follow their particular interpretation of islam. Tolerance of others, especially if they attack islam (or are perceived to be attacking it), is woefully lacking.

Sort of like Christianity was, not that long ago...........