So who's the terrorist again?

[svr]

Sort of like Christianity was, not that long ago...........

I thought Bush was STILL president?

[svr]

Is interesting how right and wrong changes with time. Us christians did our imperial land grabbing / genocidal colonization / crusades etc when it was historically acceptable huh?
Bad luck anyone who missed that window of opportunity!

[terbang]

Answers in CAPITALS

Are you living in a western compound, or in one of the cities? And are you in Jeddah, by any chance?

HAVE A FLAT IN JEDDAH. THOUGH SPEND A FAIR BIT OF TIME ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Whilst I certainly can't question the authenticity of what you say SO DON´T, it is very different from what I've heard THATS THE OPERATIVE WORD, HEARD from others, including my father when he worked there not so long ago. AND SIR I LIVE THERE
RIGHT NOW

But, perhaps you can tell me this; in NZ, or any other western country, can you be:

• Arrested, tried and executed for persuading a muslim to be baptised as a christian?
• Arrested, tried and executed for stating that Mohammad was, for instance, an illiterate paedophile?
• If you're female, arrested for lewd behaviour and sentenced to lashes for not wearing a head-scarf when outside one's house?
• If you're female, arrested for the mere act of driving?
• Sentenced to lashes (at best) for talking to an unmarried woman who is not a relative? (Obviously, this would be an unmarried Saudi muslim woman, who was not a relative, and it would have to be outside of a compound.)
• Sentenced to death by stoning for talking to an unmarried man who is not a relative?
• Arrested and sentenced to lashes for the possession of alcohol (outside of a compound)?
• Sentenced to death for being raped, as the religious police count it as adultery?

NO NOT AT ALL, DOH, THIS IS SAUDI ARABIA AND THEIR LAWS ARE DIFFERENT, THOUGH YOU DO EXAGGERATE A FAIR BIT THERE TOO. ESPECIALLY ON TH LAST ONE.
WHO AM I, OR YOU TO BE THEIR JUDGE..?

I don't know what you do in Saudi or in what circumstances you live, but it is far from a tolerant place ARE YOU SURE AND BY WHAT MEASURE?. They might tolerate you not speaking Arabic, not dressing like them and not believing in the same religion, but that's nothing compared to the tolerance automatically afforded to immigrants in western countries. The Saudis will accept your culture and beliefs, provided it does not inconvenience them in the slightest and that those beliefs do not conflict with their own.

[Sanx]

HAVE A FLAT IN JEDDAH. THOUGH SPEND A FAIR BIT OF TIME ALL OVER THE PLACE.

I did actually hear something on the BBC a couple of weeks back about a new wave of liberalism that seems to have started in Jeddah. The correspondent didn't attribute it to any one cause, but mentioned that there are now shopping malls owned by people of enough power and influence to arrange that the religious police do not have access. But he did state that Jeddah is, because of its history as a trading port and commercial centre, often more libera than other parts of Saudi.

THATS THE OPERATIVE WORD, HEARD ... AND SIR I LIVE THERE RIGHT NOW

And aren't you the know-it all prick. Well, how about asking a group that does know what they're talking about:

The government continued with reform initiatives but these had little impact in improving human rights. There were new violations linked to the "war on terror" and further clashes between security forces and members of armed groups. Scores of people suspected of belonging to or supporting such armed groups were reported to have been arrested but the authorities did not divulge their identities or other information about them, and it was unclear whether any were charged and brought to trial. Peaceful critics of the government were subjected to prolonged detention without charge or trial. There were allegations of torture, and floggings continued to be imposed by the courts. Violence against women was prevalent and migrant workers suffered discrimination and abuse. At least 39 people were executed.

That's the summary. The rest of the report's here. Read the bits about torture, enforced mutilation and death penalty for children. It's all enlightening reading. Such a tolerant place.

NO NOT AT ALL, DOH, THIS IS SAUDI ARABIA AND THEIR LAWS ARE DIFFERENT, THOUGH YOU DO EXAGGERATE A FAIR BIT THERE TOO. ESPECIALLY ON TH LAST ONE.

So is it a tolerant place or isn't it? Or are you saying that provided you fit in with their extremely restrictive rules on what you can do, wear and say, the Saudi authorities leave you alone?

[SPman]

So is it a tolerant place or isn't it? Or are you saying that provided you fit in with their extremely restrictive rules on what you can do, wear and say, the Saudi authorities leave you alone?

Is it not so with most countries, particularly "as a stranger in a strange land"?

Mr Terbang flies Airliners......a bit like all those Saudi "Terrorists" who flew into the WTC. One of those is (still) a pilot for Saudi Air.....

[Sanx]

Is it not so with most countries, particularly "as a stranger in a strange land"?

Mr Terbang flies Airliners......a bit like all those Saudi "Terrorists" who flew into the WTC. One of those is (still) a pilot for Saudi Air.....

It is the same for most countries; provided you obey their rules, fit in with their culture and do nothing to antagonise the ruling elite, you'll be fine.

But that was exactly the point I was trying to make way back in an earlier post. This rule applies in most countries, except in various PC western nations where the rule is reversed. If you're an immigrant, you can demand that everyone respects your culture and does nothing to upset you. No demand can be made of you to learn the language or obey local laws and customs; it's the host country's responsibility to adapt to how you wish to do things.

The problem in the UK with muslim extremists demanding death for anyone that insults (according to them) their pet paedophile prophet is a good example. They feel that they get freedom of speech, but no-one else has it when it comes to matters concerning their religion.

[idleidolidyll]

No, i haven't read back to where i left off last time; i doubt there's anything I haven't seen before.

just glancing at this page, it seems race hate and religious hate is alive and well.

if we're using amnesty international for 'muslims' perhaps we should check it out for 'jews' 'baptists' 'mormons' 'hindus' etc?

i know, since some think it's a really useful source, lets check out what it says about the US, Britain and Israel.

I forget, how many UN resolutions in the Security Council has the US vetoed to save Israel from sanction again?

It's in the fukkin hundreds aint it?

[idleidolidyll]

Good grief!

I can't count how many bars I've been in in Britain where local pommes threatened to kill or assault paki's, wops and dago's.

the fallacy is to suggest it's one sided

[idleidolidyll]

Is interesting how right and wrong changes with time. Us christians did our imperial land grabbing / genocidal colonization / crusades etc when it was historically acceptable huh?
Bad luck anyone who missed that window of opportunity!

you think it finished?

no way! it's merely morphed into IMF, World Bank, Free Trade ransacking of economies and resources OBO the usual suspects

[idleidolidyll]

ahh, "poisoning the well" eh?

another of those good ol fallacies.

use generalisations from unrepresentative data to paint a whole group with the actions of a few in order to suggest that whole group is a bad' as the few.

the plot backfires when it is turned around on the user.
it's relatively easy to identify a group THEY belong to and assign similar traits based on minority actions.

frankly i'm amazed people think this shit will fly.

plenty of whacko christian groups have been attacking islamic practice since the religions split from each other

[idleidolidyll]

Q: Now, the United States government says that you are still funding military training camps here in Afghanistan for militant, Islamic fighters and that you're a sponsor of international terrorism.… Are these accusations true? …

Osama Bin Laden: …At the time that they condemn any Muslim who calls for his right, they receive the highest top official of the Irish Republican Army at the White House as a political leader, while woe, all woe is the Muslims if they cry out for their rights. Wherever we look, we find the US as the leader of terrorism and crime in the world. The US does not consider it a terrorist act to throw atomic bombs at nations thousands of miles away, when it would not be possible for those bombs to hit military troops only. These bombs were rather thrown at entire nations, including women, children and elderly people and up to this day the traces of those bombs remain in Japan. The US does not consider it terrorism when hundreds of thousands of our sons and brothers in Iraq died for lack of food or medicine. So, there is no base for what the US says and this saying does not affect us.…

Source: "CNN March 1997 Interview with Osama bin Laden" (PDF)

[MisterD]

Cancers of the mind: Islam, Christianity and Socialism.

[terbang]

And aren't you the know-it all prick. Well, how about asking a group that does know what they're talking about:

No not know it all, but I suspect that I may know a little more than you about the way the Saudis are. I also suspect that you only see the world with one eye and don´t like to be told anything. BTW lets leave the name calling to the children eh.
I read all the same articles as you and many more as I am well on into learning Arabic (voluntarily of course) and also have the added bonus of living here, working here and socializing with them. I talk to Saudi women every day, they are intelligent, well educated and quite a cheerful bunch. A conversation I recently had went like this. ¨jees isn´t it a demeaning and oppressive thing for you to have to cover up all the time with those abayas and all that¨
¨Funny you say that, when I go to your world I see half naked women parading on posters, just so that you can sell beer and cigarettes, surely using a wonmans body to sell things is more oppressive and demeaning than covering it up. I prefer to be judged by what I have to say¨
No argument from me there.

[mstriumph]

Good grief!

I can't count how many bars I've been in in Britain where local pommes threatened to kill or assault paki's, wops and dago's.

the fallacy is to suggest it's one sided

people SAY things like that when they feel threatened

- there are parts of Britain in which i have felt very threatened indeed .....

[mstriumph]

............, surely using a wonmans body to sell things is more oppressive and demeaning than covering it up. I prefer to be judged by what I have to say¨
.........

no disrespect intended but i think that maybe the point is that HERE i have a choice ..... THERE i wouldn't?