So who's the terrorist again?

[mstriumph]

................

plenty of whacko christian groups have been attacking islamic practice since the religions split from each other

.... and vice-versa, of course .....

[mstriumph]

Sort of like Christianity was, not that long ago...........

mmmmm the crusades... the pogroms.... Kristallnacht ... the Spanish inquisition ....



and ANY reference to Monty Python will be severely dealt with!!

[scumdog]

mmmmm the crusades... the pogroms.... Kristallnacht ... the Spanish inquisition ....



and ANY reference to Monty Python will be severely dealt with!!

"Nonsense, - it's just a flesh wound"

[mstriumph]

..............No I haven't lived in the area, but not many of us had to go to Apartheid South Africa to know that that was also a travesty,...................

i was there .... suprising how wrong most of the long-distance commentators got it ........

[terbang]

Interestng to hear you say that. Long time ago as a much younger and hot headed lad, I protested against the springbok tour. Damn near destroyed my career and all over an ideal that I scantily understood. Time has passed and I have gained some awesome South african friends who have given me their perspective. My views are certainly different now of course.

On a slightly differnt note, though sort of relevant to this thread. The Co-pilot that I am assigned on this rotation is a Saudi, he is 50 years old, a bit of a cruiser and is happy to see his career out in the right seat. Likes to be called Sam and is a top bloke. Anyway, pre 9/11, he flew some of the Bin Laden brothers to Sudan to meet with their brother Osama Bin Laden. Bin Laden had moved there after his earlier denouncing of the Saudi Kingdom. Sam heard some of the conversation on their departure where one of the brothers basicly said ¨what the fuck are you up to¨ and ¨please, stop all this, come back to Saudi and keep our names clean¨. The reply was ¨too late, I´ll see you all in heaven¨. They left under a dark cloud and the rest is history.

[Boob Johnson]

I lost you there...

That words sounds like a disease around the anus.

The theory that the subconscious mind cannot hold two conflicting thoughts.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance


Extremely powerful, I used it to give up smoking over 8 1/2 years ago.

[slowpoke]

i was there .... suprising how wrong most of the long-distance commentators got it ........

South Africa is another interesting conflict. It's gone off the radar a bit but there are still serious problems in that country.

In what way do you think the commentators got it wrong? Depending on who you read it's either a continuing mess or the promised land....

The Truth and Reconciliataion Commission was a joke: basically only the actual perpetrators of human rights violations could be brought to task, not the power brokers behind the policies. This is basically like saying the Auschwitz guards could be charged but Hitler couldn't.

[mstriumph]

South Africa is another interesting conflict. It's gone off the radar a bit but there are still serious problems in that country.

In what way do you think the commentators got it wrong? Depending on who you read it's either a continuing mess or the promised land....

The Truth and Reconciliataion Commission was a joke: basically only the actual perpetrators of human rights violations could be brought to task, not the power brokers behind the policies. This is basically like saying the Auschwitz guards could be charged but Hitler couldn't.

my only comment on south africa now probably doesn't bear repeating - and anyway i, too, am now a 'long distance commentator'

i was in and around soweto during the time of the riots ...... it was that to which i was referring.

[peasea]

The theory that the subconscious mind cannot hold two conflicting thoughts

Yes it can.
No it can't.
Yes it can.
No it can't.

[Winston001]

Is interesting how right and wrong changes with time. Us Christians did our imperial land grabbing / genocidal colonization / crusades etc when it was historically acceptable huh?
Bad luck anyone who missed that window of opportunity!

You are right in that history is written by the winners, and perceptions of right and wrong do change. That's progress and liberalism. Lucky us.

However it is historically wrong to characterise Christian wars and the spread of the religion as the same as the current Islamic jihads. The Crusades were fought by Kings and were economic and political actions aimed at stemming the advance of Islamic Kings and warlords into Europe. The average citizen on both sides took no part.

Again, the Inquisition was a tool of the power elite in the Church to crush the Knights Templar and uppity priests. It was laughed out of England. Nasty business certainly but it focused on Christians, not other religions.

There is no comparison between extreme Islam, and any of the other major religions. Everything pales before the hatred and anger of the mullahs.

It is a shame. Moslems whom I know are gentle people and I've enjoyed Islamic countries. Why this faith is able to stir up so much much anguish among certain adherents is a mystery to me.

[svr]

you think it finished?

no way! it's merely morphed into IMF, World Bank, Free Trade ransacking of economies and resources OBO the usual suspects

True, and through cultural imperialism, the relocation of polluting, dangerous industries to the South, etc. etc.

[svr]

How many people have Muslim terrorists killed?
Since WW2 the US alone has bombed 42 countries, Christian Bush killing at least 1 million innocent (yes) Iraqi in the current killing spree.
Islamic terrorism is a red-herring.

[Winston001]

How many people have Muslim terrorists killed?
Since WW2 the US alone has bombed 42 countries, Christian Bush killing at least 1 million innocent (yes) Iraqi in the current killing spree.
Islamic terrorism is a red-herring.

Mmmm.....the red herring is the belief that the United States invades peaceful countries, kills lots of locals, and leaves. It isn't like that and given that it is all recent history, I'm surprised at your post.

Lets take some examples. Beruit 1983 - 241 Marines killed in a single bombing. They were there as peacekeepers, not fighting.

Mogadishu 1993 - The Black Hawk Down story - 18 US soldiers died, again peacekeeping. There is no oil, no possible benefit to the USA for their soldiers dying in Somalia. But they were there with other UN forces just the same.

The Balkans - or the Ballsup as it should be known by the incompetent European Union armed forces. For 6 years the French, Germans, Dutch, and British dithered around while genocide was committed in Serbia. Kosovo looked like it was going to be a bloodbath. Finally the US got sick of watching this and moved. Tens of thousands of lives were saved and the new nations there today only exist because US soldiers and pilots risked their lives. Again, no benefit to the US and Clinton was not popular at home for this.

And then there was the bombing of the US embassy in Kenya......so it goes on.

[slowpoke]

Mmmm.....the red herring is the belief that the United States invades peaceful countries, kills lots of locals, and leaves. It isn't like that and given that it is all recent history, I'm surprised at your post.

Lets take some examples. Beruit 1983 - 241 Marines killed in a single bombing. They were there as peacekeepers, not fighting.

Mogadishu 1993 - The Black Hawk Down story - 18 US soldiers died, again peacekeeping. There is no oil, no possible benefit to the USA for their soldiers dying in Somalia. But they were there with other UN forces just the same.

The Balkans - or the Ballsup as it should be known by the incompetent European Union armed forces. For 6 years the French, Germans, Dutch, and British dithered around while genocide was committed in Serbia. Kosovo looked like it was going to be a bloodbath. Finally the US got sick of watching this and moved. Tens of thousands of lives were saved and the new nations there today only exist because US soldiers and pilots risked their lives. Again, no benefit to the US and Clinton was not popular at home for this.

And then there was the bombing of the US embassy in Kenya......so it goes on.

Not forgetting of course the US involvement in such things as the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Chile (Chile) and the support of murdering dictator Pinochet.

Or their efforts to overthrow the Sandanaista government in Nicaragua and their support of the Contra's. They were subsequently brought to task in the the International Court of Justice and were convicted for their actions.

Or vetoing countless UN resolutions against Israel, it's support of the atrocious Saudi monarchy (ever wonder why the 9/11 terorrists were mostly Saudi's?), it's creation and empowerment of Saddam Hussein etc etc etc.

I'm sure the US have gone into some troublespots with good intentions but they have much to answer for with regards to the current world political climate.

[scumdog]

Hmm, I think Winston001 is just trying to point out that the USA is not 100% "Invade-and-kill-everybody-elses-country-in-the-name-of-oil" as some would have us think..Not saying the USA is perfect but it's an easy target.

Of course ranting on KB will change the world eh? eh?