So who's the terrorist again?

**Sanx** · 28th July 2008, 11:06

Originally Posted by svr

How many people have Muslim terrorists killed?
Since WW2 the US alone has bombed 42 countries, Christian Bush killing at least 1 million innocent (yes) Iraqi in the current killing spree.
Islamic terrorism is a red-herring.

One million? US bombing is responsible for killing one million Iraqis? BULLSHIT! Iraq Body Count gives the total documented figure of Iraqi civilian casualties (those that died a violent death, not those that died from starvation / disease resulting from military action) as between 86,000 and 94,000. The IBC is hardly a US-government propoganda tool either; it's about as independent as any NGO can be.

A large proportion of those killed in violent (i.e. killed by bombs, bullets or other physical acts) have been killed by Shia or Sunni militant groups. Car bombs, suicide attacks, mass-killings and abductions have all featured in the litany of atrocities carried out by one side of the islamic sectarian divide or the other.

During Allied (it wasn't just the yanks) military action, people were killed. Of course they were. More people were actually killed by starvation and sanitation-related illnesses than by physical means. I'm not saying that's any better, but it's an interesting fact nevertheless. There's also very little documented evidence to indicate exactly how many people died this way. The US erred on the side of caution (i.e. under-reported by a considerable margin) and the Iraqi authorities (and later, their apologists) massively exaggerated the deaths.

But these figures need to be compared to the deaths attributable to Hussein's regime. Iraqi authorities claimed 500,000 Iraqis were killed during the Iran / Iraq war (which Hussein triggered) and the Iranians claim that 300,000 of their own were killed too. The number of people killed in Iraqi gulags is harder to tell, as the numbers were hardly published. Accounts collected by Western-based human rights groups from Iraqi emigres and defectors suggest the figure could be as high as 200,000.

Perhaps that's where your figure of one million comes from, svr. Not casualties as the result of allied military action, but casualties directly attributable to Hussein's rule.

**scumdog** · 28th July 2008, 11:54

Originally Posted by svr

How many people have Muslim terrorists killed?
Since WW2 the US alone has bombed 42 countries, Christian Bush killing at least 1 million innocent (yes) Iraqi in the current killing spree.
Islamic terrorism is a red-herring.

Pffft!, and I have this large structure for sale in Auckland handy for crossing water - buy it from me and charge others for crossing it and make a fortune.

Send purchase price to this Nigerian bank account.....

**mstriumph** · 28th July 2008, 12:03

Originally Posted by scumdog

..............
Of course ranting on KB will change the world eh? eh?

no
but it allows people to vent / let off steam and FEEL that they've done something .......... much less likely to THEN feel the need to go out and bomb whomsoever that way?

kb - the universal solution to what-ails-you!!!!

**svr** · 28th July 2008, 12:40

Whats the acceptable body-count measure? A dead mother, son, sister etc. is still dead.
1 million Iraqi deaths as a result (direct, indirect, whats the difference) of the current invasion.
If you want to talk numbers how many were killed in the 9/11 attacks? 10 x that number of under 5yr olds starve to death every day due to poverty. My point was that the actual scale of threat to Western citizens presented by Islamic terrorism is insignificant i.e. A red herring.

**scumdog** · 28th July 2008, 12:57

Originally Posted by svr

Whats the acceptable body-count measure? A dead mother, son, sister etc. is still dead.
1 million Iraqi deaths as a result (direct, indirect, whats the difference) of the current invasion.
If you want to talk numbers how many were killed in the 9/11 attacks? 10 x that number of under 5yr olds starve to death every day due to poverty. My point was that the actual scale of threat to Western citizens presented by Islamic terrorism is insignificant i.e. A red herring.

Where do you get the '1 million' figure from.

And are you Islamic???

**Winston001** · 28th July 2008, 13:35

Originally Posted by slowpoke

Not forgetting of course the US involvement in such things as the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Chile (Chile) and the support of murdering dictator Pinochet.

Or their efforts to overthrow the Sandanaista government in Nicaragua and their support of the Contra's. They were subsequently brought to task in the the International Court of Justice and were convicted for their actions.

Or vetoing countless UN resolutions against Israel, it's support of the atrocious Saudi monarchy (ever wonder why the 9/11 terorrists were mostly Saudi's?), it's creation and empowerment of Saddam Hussein etc etc etc.

I'm sure the US have gone into some troublespots with good intentions but they have much to answer for with regards to the current world political climate.

The US is big and easy to pick on. Yes, they have made some appalling foreign policy blunders, the support of the corrupt South Vietnam government being the worst by far.

In more recent times, Saddam Hussein was a "friend" in the 70s and 80s because Iraq provided a bulwark in the region against the Islamic regime of Iran.

Today the US is friendly with Uzbekistan which is a quasi-dictatorship (although nominally democratic) as well as Pakistan which is a malestrom of corruption as well as having nuclear weapons.

Politics makes strange bedfellows......

Incidentally China supports the Sudanese government, a nation where its President Omar Hassan Al-Bashir has just been indicted by the International Court of Justice.

China also supports Zimbabwe - remember the ship-load of munitions discovered off the coast of East Africa?

Funny - don't see any frothing at the mouth about China here........

Usual double standards. Face up to it - in China political commentary in this forum would disappear and you'd be tracked down for "re-education".

**Winston001** · 28th July 2008, 13:47

Originally Posted by svr

If you want to talk numbers how many were killed in the 9/11 attacks? 10 x that number of under 5yr olds starve to death every day due to poverty. My point was that the actual scale of threat to Western citizens presented by Islamic terrorism is insignificant i.e. A red herring.

Yessss.........but dead is dead - and we don't like that in the West. We tend to get stroppy and launch massive counter-attacks.....because we can.

Lets imagine your mother/child dies in an Islamic inspired bombing in Wellington. Are you going to take the moral high-ground and recognise this was a political act brought about by the perceived oppression of the Third World? That it was a valid guerilla action by impoverished Moslems to bring world attention to their plight?? That the death was a martyrdom which your loved one was fortunate to contribute to a just cause.......??

**SPman** · 28th July 2008, 13:47

Originally Posted by Winston001

Today the US is friendly with Uzbekistan which is a quasi-dictatorship (although nominally democratic) as well as Pakistan which is a malestrom of corruption as well as having nuclear weapons.

Politics makes strange bedfellows......

Aaah - Uzbekistan, where boiling in oil of political opponents, is still a favoured pastime.

Pakistan - who see themselves as leaders of the Islamic world.....

Indeed

**Sanx** · 28th July 2008, 13:53

Originally Posted by svr

1 million Iraqi deaths as a result (direct, indirect, whats the difference) of the current invasion.

Sorry - but the figure of one million has been pulled out of your arse. It has no similarity to anything approaching reality. One million people may have died in Iraq since the initial invasion, but that figure would have to include deaths by natural causes, old age, disease, vehicle accidents, bombings, shootings, drugs, lightning strikes and running with scissors.

To blame every single death, no matter the cause, on the Allied invasion is simply ridiculous.

As I said, independent organisations estimate the number dead as a result of military activities (and this includes the people killed by Islamic insurgents - are they the US's fault too) at just under 100,000. That's a far cry from the figure of one million you're bandying about with absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever.

**svr** · 28th July 2008, 18:14

Originally Posted by Sanx

Sorry - but the figure of one million has been pulled out of your arse.

Well spotted that man! Actually, not from my arse, from some commentator on `Alt TV' actually... (I used to use more reliable sources).

If only 100,000 have been killed thats ok then.

**scumdog** · 28th July 2008, 19:02

Originally Posted by svr

Well spotted that man! Actually, not from my arse, from some commentator on `Alt TV' actually... (I used to use more reliable sources).

If only 100,000 have been killed thats ok then.

I found an equally reliable source of information that says at least a million were not killed...

**speedpro** · 28th July 2008, 19:32

I've told you guys a million times not to exagerate, or was it only 100,000 times?

**peasea** · 28th July 2008, 22:44

Originally Posted by mstriumph

no
but it allows people to vent / let off steam and FEEL that they've done something .......... much less likely to THEN feel the need to go out and bomb whomsoever that way?

Not me; I'm surfing the net for bombs right now.