So who's the terrorist again?

[Winston001]

Germany and Japan were both a homogenous society - only one or two major religions, no tribalism, etc.

I'm shocked, didn't know they were homo societies..

[jonbuoy]

While this isn't a new thought, if there was no oil there, the US wouldn't give a shit.
The level of corruption and deceit is horrible.

The US wouldn't give a shit IF the Iraqis were just shooting each other/neighbouring countries/chopping off arms/heads as happens in Africa, its the Skuds, continued interest and attempts to develop WOMD and the destabilising effect that might have if they started flinging them around the middle east. Suadi has four times the amount of oil reserves that Iraq has, and Iraq's oil production and sales were held back by the UN itself after the first Gulf war, if oil was all it was about the US would have pressured the UN to release the embargos on Iraq and free up the oil. They and the UN were worried about what the Iraqis would do with the money/resources they got from the oil. Remember the supergun?

[slowpoke]

The US wouldn't give a shit IF the Iraqis were just shooting each other/neighbouring countries/chopping off arms/heads as happens in Africa, its the Skuds, continued interest and attempts to develop WOMD and the destabilising effect that might have if they started flinging them around the middle east. Suadi has four times the amount of oil reserves that Iraq has, and Iraq's oil production and sales were held back by the UN itself after the first Gulf war, if oil was all it was about the US would have pressured the UN to release the embargos on Iraq and free up the oil. They and the UN were worried about what the Iraqis would do with the money/resources they got from the oil. Remember the supergun?

It's not about oil production per se, it's about oil/energy control. By controlling Iraq the US have secured their energy supplies. Bush, Cheney, Rice et al are all come from very senior oil company positions and are quite happy with the high oil price and the record incomes it brings to their former/current employers.

Scuds, and Supergun's are insignificant in the great scheme of things. Any WOMD that Iraq possessed were given to them by the US and no means have ever been found to produce them.

If it walks like a duck, quack's like a duck and looks like a duck then it's a probably a duck...apply that philosophy to the US Iraqi invasion and the US have covered an obvious grab for energy with a flimsy smoke screen. "Might is right" hence most governments doing business with the US politely look the other way as Iraq is raped by the biggest kid on the block.

[svr]

Now that oil production has peaked, with cheap reserves expected to be exhausted by 2030 and with no real energy alternatives on the horizon, we will see more and more US `militarization' of oil supply. This seems inevitable.
But we don't have to swallow the spin from Washington!

[davereid]

We have plenty of cheap energy.

Actually we have many many plenty cheap.

We have decided not to use it as it may contribute to global warming.

But there is no shortage of energy in New Zealand.

Our currently known and economically exploitable coal reserves are about 8000,000,000 tons.

(This excludes natural gas and other reserves, we are just considering coal.)

We use about 22,000 tons a day of fossil fuels.

So we have a thousand years to go before we are in crisis, based on our coal reserves and current technology.

Maybe in a thousand years we will have developed better technology, and it will be even less of a problem.

[svr]

I knew some smartarse would mention coal!
OK then , developed economies rely on CHEAP energy, which currently = oil. Coal to liquid fuel is still a comparatively expensive process, and would accelerate global warming (more of a problem for the poor coastal dwellers than US oil addicts, of course).
Anyway, forget global warming - the next ice age is due to wipe us all out in 10,000 years anyhows

[Sanx]

Anyway, forget global warming - the next ice age is due to wipe us all out in 10,000 years anyhows

Yeah, and when the next ice age turns up, the tree-huggers will be out in force saying that's all our fault too.

[slowpoke]

Now that oil production has peaked, with cheap reserves expected to be exhausted by 2030 and with no real energy alternatives on the horizon, we will see more and more US `militarization' of oil supply. This seems inevitable.
But we don't have to swallow the spin from Washington!

That's just it: oil is fuggin' cheap to produce already, it's only the artificial price regulation that makes it seem expensive.

It seems incredible that this sort of price collusion is allowed to go on. If all the supermarkets got together and said we are going to make milk $10/litre then there would be an unproar and people/companies would be charged. Why not oil? Because those in power are making too much money off it.

[Jeremy]

I knew some smartarse would mention coal!
OK then , developed economies rely on CHEAP energy, which currently = oil. Coal to liquid fuel is still a comparatively expensive process, and would accelerate global warming (more of a problem for the poor coastal dwellers than US oil addicts, of course).
Anyway, forget global warming - the next ice age is due to wipe us all out in 10,000 years anyhows

Not here. At the current price point for crude, it's economically viable, considering the free power it gives you you might even end up with a net benefit. No harmful byproducts here, since we've got clean coal.

http://www.ieee.org/portal/site/ieee...rCt!-416001754

I don't know if you can see that url without IEEE membership, but coal gasification is going to become big business. And we'll probably see a couple of plants here, since the byproducts are all useable by industries here and that they double as powerstations. China's going to start building the plants like crazy as basically means they free themselves from OPEC.

http://www.tampaelectric.com/data/fi...icalReport.pdf

[scumdog]

So all the Bush-bashers would be thinking that if Bush and the US kept out of other countries all would be well and nobody would be trying to dominate any other country/area for their own ends??????

[jonbuoy]

It's not about oil production per se, it's about oil/energy control. By controlling Iraq the US have secured their energy supplies. Bush, Cheney, Rice et al are all come from very senior oil company positions and are quite happy with the high oil price and the record incomes it brings to their former/current employers.

Scuds, and Supergun's are insignificant in the great scheme of things. Any WOMD that Iraq possessed were given to them by the US and no means have ever been found to produce them.

If it walks like a duck, quack's like a duck and looks like a duck then it's a probably a duck...apply that philosophy to the US Iraqi invasion and the US have covered an obvious grab for energy with a flimsy smoke screen. "Might is right" hence most governments doing business with the US politely look the other way as Iraq is raped by the biggest kid on the block.

Depends whats on the end of the Skud/Supergun even a primitive dirty Nuke or one of Chemical Ali's homebrews would be enough to start WW3 if it was flung in the wrong direction. As long as oil producing countries like Saudi' spend there money on gold plated Roller's and private jets the US are happy, its when they start the world domination game they get tetchy. People seem to forget exactly how bad things could have been if Iraq had slipped Al Queda something nasty in a suitcase.

[davereid]

Not here. At the current price point for crude, it's economically viable, considering the free power it gives you you might even end up with a net benefit. No harmful byproducts here, since we've got clean coal.

http://www.ieee.org/portal/site/ieee...rCt!-416001754

I don't know if you can see that url without IEEE membership, but coal gasification is going to become big business. And we'll probably see a couple of plants here, since the byproducts are all useable by industries here and that they double as powerstations. China's going to start building the plants like crazy as basically means they free themselves from OPEC.

http://www.tampaelectric.com/data/fi...icalReport.pdf

And the retail price of the electricity generated seems quite reasonable at $0.09 per kw/hr.

[slowpoke]

Depends whats on the end of the Skud/Supergun even a primitive dirty Nuke or one of Chemical Ali's homebrews would be enough to start WW3 if it was flung in the wrong direction. As long as oil producing countries like Saudi' spend there money on gold plated Roller's and private jets the US are happy, its when they start the world domination game they get tetchy. People seem to forget exactly how bad things could have been if Iraq had slipped Al Queda something nasty in a suitcase.

Valid enough points...but it's all reactive thinking. We should be asking ourselves why these issues have reared their ugly head to start with.

The general Saudi population is pissed off at the US because they have propped up their despotic monarchy, hence most of the 9/11 "terrorists" were Saudi citizens.

The US actually trained Osama bin Laden to start with. They created their own nightmare and inist on dragging the rest of the world into it.

The US funded/armed/trained the warlords in Aghanistan to fight the Russians. Once the US invaded to secure their oil pipeline they beat up the Taliban which was the only entity keeping the warlords in check. Now the warlords are running riot and what was a comparitively safe (harsh doctrine, admittedly) environment has become virtually lawless. As a result 1000's of lives are being lost/destroyed with no signs of it abating.

Etc

Etc

Thanks to US foreign policy we live in a far more dangerous world than any that would have arisen if they'd left things the hell alone.

[pete376403]

People seem to forget exactly how bad things could have been if Iraq had slipped Al Queda something nasty in a suitcase.

Iraq under Saddam would never had any co-operation with or from Al Quada.
Saddam for all his faults was running a secular state. Bin Laden called Saddam an "infidel".
Even the Sept 11 commision reported "The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq." (Washington Post Thursday, June 17, 2004; Page A01)

Of course now Saddam is removed from the scene, under the USAs most excellent management of Iraq, Al-Quada cells are popping up al over the place.

[svr]

Not here. At the current price point for crude, it's economically viable, considering the free power it gives you you might even end up with a net benefit. No harmful byproducts here, since we've got clean coal.

http://www.ieee.org/portal/site/ieee...rCt!-416001754

I don't know if you can see that url without IEEE membership, but coal gasification is going to become big business. And we'll probably see a couple of plants here, since the byproducts are all useable by industries here and that they double as powerstations. China's going to start building the plants like crazy as basically means they free themselves from OPEC.

http://www.tampaelectric.com/data/fi...icalReport.pdf

Cheers for that Jeremy. Looks like promising technology - the problem (post Kyoto) for coal was the carbon emissions, but this has that sorted. Hopefully saves lives...

Just read a book on the hot peak oil investments. Recomended:
1. Weapons manufacturers
2. Coal to gasoline technology