Time to arm our guards

[Sanx]

Sorry but I take exception to that part of your statement. I partake in the sport of target shooting with pistols. I happen to own 7 pistols, each suitable for different target disciplines. I never bought any of them with the idea of the time I was going to use them to shoot someone.

Actually if I was going out to shoot someone I would by preference be rather carrying my 12 guage shotgun with 00 buck shot.

So in order to take part in that sport, you need to own your own hand-gun and have it round the house? Plenty of people play rugby, but they don't own a pitch to play on. If you enjoy target shooting (and I'm sorry, but hand-guns are hardly accurate for the most part unless you buy a specific pistol designed specifically for target shooting) then you can buy a gun, and leave it locked up at a gun club, minus some crucial part that you take home with you and keep locked up there. You certainly don't need to be able to keep a couple of Glocks lying about the house.

Or do as I have done: Used one to make a lot of holes in a lot of paper...

Buy a hole punch.

England is not a good example to use when thinking about "gun control".
Gun crime has risen dramatically since the "dis-arming of the population", but the criminals are happier.
GF was living in Sarf London and regularly went to sleep to the sound of gunfire.

Oh bullshit. Gun crime may well have risen, but it's fuck all to do with gun control. Even before the current gun laws were enacted, owning a hand gun was a rarity. People didn't walk the streets armed to the teeth. In 27 years of living there, I never met one person who had any firearm other than a .22 rifle or a shotgun.

Criminals can get guns? Sure they can, but having them available only on the black market does limit their supply and also makes the Police's job easier when they know that all hand guns are illegal, instead of trying to establish if someone's got a licence to own one, and so on. You see a pistol, it's illegal and you call in the armed offenders squad.

[Swoop]

So in order to take part in that sport, you need to own your own hand-gun and have it round the house? Plenty of people play rugby, but they don't own a pitch to play on.

Hmm, a bit off target there. If you play thugby you take the ball home with you, but the field stays where it is... just like shooting sports really.
"Having it around the house?" Do you think that a pistol gets hung up on a hook next to the car keys when you get home?

If you enjoy target shooting (and I'm sorry, but hand-guns are hardly accurate for the most part unless you buy a specific pistol designed specifically for target shooting)

A simple "Buahahahaha" will suffice to this comment.

then you can buy a gun, and leave it locked up at a gun club, minus some crucial part that you take home with you and keep locked up there.

This method has already been used (and has failed) in other countries.

You certainly don't need to be able to keep a couple of Glocks lying about the house..

You really do not know what the firearm's laws are, in NZ, do you?

Oh bullshit. Gun crime may well have risen, but its fuck all to do with gun control.

Unfortunately it has everything to do with gun control. If it weren't for the anti-fun brigade, the UK would still have competitive sportspeople. What has happened is that shooters who wish to compete, have to go overseas to practice, then compete, and then leave their guns overseas as well. The Olympic Games were a "special event" and surrounded with the PC bollocks we have come to know from western society.
Luckily the UK crims know that they are the only people with guns, so there isn't any worry when they go to rob someone.

I do have to ask what your experience is with firearms, particularly in NZ?
The security provisions??? What about those?

The laws in force here are some of the best in the world.
A particularly good example of the worst kind of law, is the Canadian example. Not only ineffective but also stupendously expensive for the country to maintain.
The UK example was a nice knee-jerk reaction to Dunblane. This incident was another police fuck-up, since they had AMPLE opportunities of prior warnings, and chances to pull his licence which would have dealt with that fuckwit. The sporting community suffered because of police incompetence.

[scumdog]

Hmm, a bit off target there.

"Must spread some bling"

Right on the button there matey, top stuff.

[scumdog]

People didn't walk the streets armed to the teeth. In 27 years of living there, I never met one person who had any firearm other than a .22 rifle or a shotgun.

Just check the number of firearm related homicides in say London compared to Auckland and see how they rate per capita.

And limiting guns to the black market means that only criminals will have guns, - and we all know why THEY want guns.

BTW: I work with UK guys that have attended more deaths relating to pistols than any cop in NZ will ever attend - and pistols are 100% banned in the UK, unlike in NZ.

[Sanx]

[quote=Swoop;1639514]Hmm, a bit off target there. If you play thugby you take the ball home with you, but the field stays where it is... just like shooting sports really.
"Having it around the house?" Do you think that a pistol gets hung up on a hook next to the car keys when you get home?[QUOTE]

Of course I don't. From what I understand about the gun laws in NZ, guns need to be kept unloaded in a locked gun cabinet, and I believe you're not allowed to keep the ammunition in the same place. Could be wrong, of course.

A simple "Buahahahaha" will suffice to this comment.

Over what range is a normal hand-gun accurate compared to, for instance, a good .22 rifle? From a quick browse of indoor shooting range websites in the US, 50 foot ranges seem quite common. At 50 foot, even I could pick out a reasonable pattern with a decent rifle (and yes, I have shot rifles and enjoyed it). Olympic pistol shooting is carried out over three distances, the longest being 50m - and the guns they use are highly specialised for that exact purpose.

I just had a quick browse of the websites of a few major gun manufacturers. There was much mention of reliability, magazine capacity, the ability to carry the weapon concealed, and the suitability of weapons for different purposes including carrying it as a 'backup weapon'. Only on specific models designed for competition shooting was accuracy and suitability for that purpose mentioned.

This method has already been used (and has failed) in other countries.

And these countries are?

You really do not know what the firearm's laws are, in NZ, do you?

I was being slightly facetious, but you have actually proved a point. Given that you cannot carry a pistol with you when you take your kids to school or do the weekly shopping, what use is it as a defence weapon? Given that a firearm must be kept in a locked cabinet, and the ammunition kept seperately and securely, owning a pistol would be of limited use even in the event of a home invasion.

Unfortunately it has everything to do with gun control. If it weren't for the anti-fun brigade, the UK would still have competitive sportspeople. What has happened is that shooters who wish to compete, have to go overseas to practice, then compete, and then leave their guns overseas as well. The Olympic Games were a "special event" and surrounded with the PC bollocks we have come to know from western society.

Right - so competitive pistol shooters have suffered. Big fucken deal.

Luckily the UK crims know that they are the only people with guns, so there isn't any worry when they go to rob someone.

But even before the current level of gun control in the UK, it was extremely rare for a person to own a handgun. People just didn't own them. So the situation has not changed in 99.9% of cases.

The UK example was a nice knee-jerk reaction to Dunblane. This incident was another police fuck-up, since they had AMPLE opportunities of prior warnings, and chances to pull his licence which would have dealt with that fuckwit. The sporting community suffered because of police incompetence.

Well, given that the two biggest gun massacres in the UK were carried out by people who held their weapons legally - people of good social standing in the community - depriving those people of owning hand-guns (and it was just hand-guns - you can still own rifles and shotguns) seemed like a good idea. And there hasn't been another such incident since.

[sid201]

I'm responsible, my firearms are correctly and securely stored as is my ammunition(separately) which is required by law .
Sorry but I get really pissed off when some folks come to the conclusion that gun owner= future spree killer
I think police should be armed with Tazers and more should be recruited -I've had two instances over the last month where police either didn't come at all(not a111 call) or the responce time was unacceptable (111 call35-40 mins before arrival)
It's highly unlikely that if there was an incident at my home I could gain access to a gun to defend myself (4 locks 3 keys and 2 rooms) and my family but I'd probably be able to do a hell of a lot of damage with a chair leg!!

The UK example was a nice knee-jerk reaction to This incident was another police fuck-up, since they had AMPLE opportunities of prior warnings, and chances to pull his licence which would have dealt with that fuckwit. The sporting community suffered because of police incompetence.

there was lot's of issues with Thomas Hamilton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

[Sanx]

Just check the number of firearm related homicides in say London compared to Auckland and see how they rate per capita.

And limiting guns to the black market means that only criminals will have guns, - and we all know why THEY want guns.

BTW: I work with UK guys that have attended more deaths relating to pistols than any cop in NZ will ever attend - and pistols are 100% banned in the UK, unlike in NZ.

The availability of guns in the UK has nothing to do with the gun-control laws, but the country's geographical poximity to mainland Europe. At its closest point, England's 42km from France. There is massive traffic by train, truck, car and on foot between the UK and Europe every day. It would simply be impossible for the Police to thoroughly search every vehicle coming in.

But the gun crime rates in the UK are still very low. 0.5% of all crime is gun-related. The per-capita gun death rates are also low compared to many other countries:

Gun murders per 100,000 population (2007)

USA: 3.92
Switzerland: 0.93
Italy: 0.81
Canada: 0.69
Finland: 0.61
Netherlands: 0.46
Germany: 0.33
Poland: 0.29
France: 0.28
Australia: 0.27
England and Wales: 0.1
Japan: 0.03

I can't find up to date figures for New Zealand, but in 2000 there were 0.12 gun deaths per 100,000 people in England and Wales (Scotland obviously doesn't count) and 0.18 gun deaths per 100,000 people in NZ.

Some caveats about the information above:

• The figures do not differentiate between different types of firearm. If that information is recorded, I cannot find it.
• The UK's figures include accidental deaths and 'firearms' are include all weapons for which one needs a firearms licences, including high-power air rifles. By contrast, the US figures are intentional homicides only.

Less than 0.5% of all crime recorded by Police in the UK is gun-related. That compares quite favourably to the 9% of crime in the US that's gun-related. In 2006 68% of murders, 42% of robberies and 22% of aggravated assaults in the US were carried out with a firearm. In the same period in the UK, there were 566 "serious or fatal" firearm injuries in the UK. I can't find figures for 2006 for the US, but in 2004 the FBI estimated that there were 10650 firearm homicides in the US. Now, the US population is about five times that of the UK, so on per capita terms, the US rate would equate to 2100 odd gun murders in the UK. There were actually just 59 gun deaths in the UK; approximately 2.8% of the US figure in per-capita terms.

Sources:

• Wikipedia
• Gun Control Network
• US Department of Justice Firearms and Crime Statistics
• UK Home Office

Just check the number of firearm related homicides in say London compared to Auckland and see how they rate per capita.

If you can find up to date figures for Auckland or even NZ as a whole, I'd be interested in seeing them. I simply cannot find them via Google, anyway.

[davereid]

The availability of guns in the UK has nothing to do with the gun-control laws, but the country's geographical poximity to mainland Europe. At its closest point, England's 42km from France.

If you are implying that guns are not freely available to bad guys in New Zealand due to our geographic isolation you are wrong.

Pick up the paper on any day, and you will read of criminals using handguns. A woman shot in the head, police looking for an armed bad guy, etc etc. Its just daily reading.

In spite of our best intentions borders are, always have been, and will always remain leaky.

I know exactly which pub to go to, which bad guy to see, and how much it would cost to get my hands on a handgun if I was so inclined.

You will never stop criminal violence of any kind by limiting the victims self-defence options.

[Mr Merde]

[quote=Sanx;1640029]

....But even before the current level of gun control in the UK, it was extremely rare for a person to own a handgun. People just didn't own them. So the situation has not changed in 99.9% of cases.....

.

Bollocks

I started pistol shooting in the UK in 1980.

Every year I went to a competition at Bisley. This was a week long competition for all different types of pistol shooting. There was in the final years upwards of 2000 competitors. The Olympics only has about 7,000 -10,000 over 2 weeks.

When the government banned handguns totally it cost them approx 1 billion pounds in buy back. That was at the much reduced rate they paid in compensation (200 ukp for a full bore, 100 ukp for a smallbore, just one of my target pistols cost over 1000 ukp and I had 10 of the things for different events).

It was estimated that apart from the 200,000 pistol shooters in England, Scotland and Wales, that it would directly affect upon the livelyhood of 600,000 persons.

The shooting sports at the time was rated the second most participated sport in the UK. The most paricipated was angling.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Nice to see you getting top value for your tax-dollars...

ten characters blah blah

[HenryDorsetCase]

While waiting in line at a checkpoint, I watched a copper wandering down the line of cones, moving them one by one, about 10cm to the right.....VERY important job that - no wonder they are so busy at the checkpoints.....

did you roll the car window down and shout "Hey, you're a public servant, get me another beer willya?"

because they love that. Pleecemin and wimmin doing that job are just gagging for some light relief from the tedium of their humdrum existence. Trust me on this, try it next time.

[HenryDorsetCase]

"Having it around the house?" Do you think that a pistol gets hung up on a hook next to the car keys when you get home?

Well, yeah: with a full mag, and one in the chamber and safety off. They're always bleating about getting kids off the couch and stop playing playstations and what not: giving them easy access to handguns like that would do that.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The cops have been crying out for Tazors and still don't have them, the stink that was caused when people thought cops might get such a thing was huge, now they want the Cops to be armed, yet i have yet to meet a Cop who wants to carry a firearm full time, It isn't the Police who decide the politics, its the Politicains , if ya don't like the way things are being done coming up with ideas like arming sucurity gaurds isn't the answer, go see your local MP.

The WALLACE shooting is still being investigated now, maybe if people got there information from the right sources instead of what they see on tv , something constructive might be done.

Just to go wildly off topic for a second: My view is that Wallace got exactly what he deserved, and crucifying Keith Abbott not only will not bring the waste of space back to life, but also does no one any favours. One mans opinion.

[portokiwi]

No we should not arm our security officers, Its true half the guards out there do not do the job they should be doing. Its true that a lot of them sleep on duty, a few of them also moonlight while they were on duty.
The training courses they do are a joke.
The after training for most are almost nonexsistant.
I would say they should be provided with stab proof vests as they are the front of most incidents.
The only problem I would see is some of the selling them. They are paid crap.
Its the old saying you pay for what you get.
They realy need to tighten up the security industry. But with WINZ chucking people in as security guards with very little training or motivation what do you expect.
Some firms are very good but they manly do VIP or close protection and private homes.
Those firms pay well and are very selective on who the employ.

[Swoop]

Of course I don't. From what I understand about the gun laws in NZ...

OK, so you are not conversant with what actually happens in NZ.
I would suggest that you go to a police station and apply for a licence. This will give you much more knowledge in what the rules are.
You will need to provide a range of character witnesses who will vouch for your good character.
The membership of a club is necessary if you want to own pistols, as will be membership of Pistol NZ, the governing body. More checks? You bet!

Over what range is a normal hand-gun accurate compared to, for instance, a good .22 rifle? From a quick browse of indoor shooting range websites in the US, 50 foot ranges seem quite common. At 50 foot, even I could pick out a reasonable pattern with a decent rifle (and yes, I have shot rifles and enjoyed it). Olympic pistol shooting is carried out over three distances, the longest being 50m - and the guns they use are highly specialised for that exact purpose..

Your average pistol is accurate out to 75metres or thereabouts. Accurised or specific target pistols are used out to 200 metres.
50 metre ranges are quite common however 25 metre ranges are the most commonly found. Do not get into the type of thinking that a pistol is only accurate over those distances however.

I just had a quick browse of the websites of a few major gun manufacturers. There was much mention of reliability, magazine capacity, the ability to carry the weapon concealed, and the suitability of weapons for different purposes including carrying it as a 'backup weapon'...

That is marketing for you, especially if they are US manufacturers since they are catering to their market.

And these countries are?.

Predominantly European. I'll go and have a look for you.

I was being slightly facetious, but you have actually proved a point. Given that you cannot carry a pistol with you when you take your kids to school or do the weekly shopping, what use is it as a defence weapon? Given that a firearm must be kept in a locked cabinet, and the ammunition kept separately and securely, owning a pistol would be of limited use even in the event of a home invasion..

Quite correct. Since ownership in NZ is for sporting purposes (target shooting) they cannot be used as a defensive firearm. Also the hassle involved with getting all the bits, ammo, keys together, would take ages if the need arose.

Right - so competitive pistol shooters have suffered. Big fucken deal..

If litre bikes and/or WSB/Moto GP were banned, you would be having a whine as well if your sport or recreation was taken away from you.

Well, given that the two biggest gun massacres in the UK were carried out by people who held their weapons legally - people of good social standing in the community...

Actually you will find that those people were alien from their "community". Our local shooting at Aramoana is a classic case in point and another time where the police knew about the problem yet failed to act accordingly.
Your pommy mate at Dunblane... (covered in another members' post).

depriving those people of owning hand-guns (and it was just hand-guns - you can still own rifles and shotguns) seemed like a good idea. And there hasn't been another such incident since.

Yet.

The ownership of shotguns and rifles is severely limited as well. The whining anti-anything brigade will obviously want them done away with as well. The crim's will be sitting on the sideline, quietly watching with anticipation.