(un)Sensing Murder

[Number One]

I guess we get so caught up in trying to get our opinions across that sometimes our compassion gets swept under the carpet.

Compassion and KB There are some absolute gems out there in KB land (such as yourself ) but I certainly don't rely on or expect any compassion from the general population - as time goes by though I can see why lots of people DON'T bother contributing to threads...stick your neck out there is always some one around to chop it. Thankfully I'm quite resilient and don't really give a shit what the 'righteous and 'apparently all knowing' others think...either about me OR my opinions.

[scrivy]

I sit on the fence with all of this mumbo.... (or is it???)

I would love to believe in extra powers, but need more proof.

I remember 2 years ago, when they were doing a Melbourne shoot of Sensing Murder, that the psychics specified where the multiple bodies were of a serial killer in a certain woods. And when they were there, the psychics said there were also other bodies around from other murderers. On the show, they confirmed that they had indeed found more bodies nearby. Is this proof, or a greater hoax/guess?

Stil sittin on da fence......
Oh, oh, oh........ I can feel a coffee coming on.......
F@ck me!!! I'm sickic too!!!!

[Badjelly]

...I guess we get so caught up in trying to get our opinions across that sometimes our compassion gets swept under the carpet....

I have a horrible feeling that might apply to me. Sorry

[ManDownUnder]

What have the magicians and priests given us by comparison?

Magicians - entertainment

Priests... "Knowledge" that would suggest is based on anecdotal evidence rather than a knowledge of the specific workings. Take a look in The Bible (and no - I'm not a Bible basher) but you'll find advice in there that is beyond it's day.

There's old testament advice telling brothers not to sleep with sisters (well ahead of any knowledge of genetics and the perils of inbreeding), the dangers of blood bourne disease, and germs. What about not eating Pork? Isn't it interesting the pigs are a species sufficiently close to humans for some diseases to transfer, especially if the meat's not thoroughly cooked?

I don't recall all the quotes at the mo, but religious aspects aside there are controls put in place under the umbrella of "God says thou shalt not"... that actually make a lot of sense in respect of the nature of the universe, disease etc.

What was once religious dogma has since been "discovered" and ratified by science. What about all the other super natural phenomia?

I agree that most of it is hoax put forth by those able to gain financially... but to rule it all out, in the absence if evidence "just because" is a little much really... just as ruling it all in "just because" is.

[scumdog]

If you watched all the programme including the bleeped out bits. They virtually named everyone involved and at the end of the day 1 DNA sample would either prove or disprove the whole show. Now to get that would take about as much time as the police take to issue a couple of speeding or failing to stop tickets. Which is more important????

I guess you don't really know much about the system and DNA do you?

OK, they have DNA from a ciggy but or something, unless the guy whose DNA it is has alrady provided a sample for the data-bank (in which case he has committed a crime at some stage in his past) they have nobody t match it to.

All the people they SUSPECT it might belong to are not obliged to provide a sample to see if it matches.
So at present the police have a DNA sample but nobody to link it to, no result..(and even if it WAS linked to somebody all it would prove would be that at some stage that person was at the same general area as the fire - it could have been a Korean tourist, it could be anybody.)


And at least the speeding tickets WILL get a result.

[Edbear]

I used to work with a woman who appeared on Sensing Murder as a Psychic, I asked her why she didn't just pick the Lotto numbers instead of working, she never talked to me again after that.

One has to wonder why they don't enter all the gambling houses and clean them out, eh?

I only saw parts of it, too busy masturbating with my cheese grater.

Cheese graters can masturbate..?

[Badjelly]

What about not eating Pork? Isn't it interesting the pigs are a species sufficiently close to humans for some diseases to transfer, especially if the meat's not thoroughly cooked?

Stephen Pinker covers this one in one of his books. He points out that if the Hebrew prohibition against eating pork were really related to the risk of catching diseases from meat that's not thoroughly cooked, then the rule would be "Thou shalt cook thy pork thoroughly." He thinks the pork prohibition arose because the Hebrews of the time were nomadic shepherds, for whom pigs were of no use. So "thou shalt not eat pork" means "thou shalt not hang out with those other people, who don't roam the deserts with their sheep like decent people do, but sit in their houses with the pigs rooting through their rubbish piles". In other words, it's a way of reinforcing cultural identity. A particularly effective way because humans are naturally very suspicious of eating meat that they haven't been exposed to in their early childhood years. So when teenagers leave their family group and might want to settle with the non-Hebrews down the road, they are put off by their disgust at eating that horrible pig meat.

But, I digress, religion does provide a basis for rules about how to live your life, or at least provides authority ("Because God said so") for such rules.

My question about what the priests have given us related more to knowledge about how the world is and how it came to be. I maintain that the knowledge provided by science is not only more accurate than that provided in religious texts (i.e., it holds up when additional facts are discovered) but it's also vastly more interesting and exciting.

[vifferman]

...the Hebrew prohibition against eating pork ... blah blah blah...

I worked with an Israel guy a wee while back (used to tease him about being a Mossad agent, which he confirmed, especially by moving to Welllington to be closer to the embassies, or so I reckoned...) anyhoo..
We were talking about pigs, pork and that kind of thing. In response to summat he said, I replied, "I thought there wouldn't be any pigs in Israel, it being the Holy Land and all that."
"Oh yes, there are people who eat pork, and people who raise pigs for meat to sell to them".
"How do they get on with not desecrating the Holy Land and all that?"
"The pigs have to be in pens on raised platforms, so they aren't in contact with the ground."

[ManDownUnder]

Stephen Pinker covers this one in one of his books. He points out that if the Hebrew prohibition against eating pork were really related to the risk of catching diseases from meat that's not thoroughly cooked, then the rule would be "Thou shalt cook thy pork thoroughly." He thinks the pork prohibition arose because the Hebrews of the time were nomadic shepherds, for whom pigs were of no use. So "thou shalt not eat pork" means "thou shalt not hang out with those other people, who don't roam the deserts with their sheep like decent people do, but sit in their houses with the pigs rooting through their rubbish piles". In other words, it's a way of reinforcing cultural identity. A particularly effective way because humans are naturally very suspicious of eating meat that they haven't been exposed to in their early childhood years. So when teenagers leave their family group and might want to settle with the non-Hebrews down the road, they are put off by their disgust at eating that horrible pig meat.

It's a very nice theory. I wonder if it's right. My theory is that observations were made over time of people getting pretty sick after eating, and someone made the link back to pork. A religious person had a dream about it, took it as a sign from God - it was thus ratified, transcribed and the good people following The Word no longer fell ill, while the heathens did. Clearly a sign from above. I find that quite easy to believe personally - although it's not the only option. (You can quote me on that back to Stephen Pinker by the way, it's in writing so it has authority).

My whole point is the simple self evdent truth to be found in "we don't know what we don't know". It's possible to disprove something by finding (demonstrating and subjecting to the rigours of the scientific process) a proof other than the hypothesis, but to point and say "I don't believe it therefore it's not true" is a bit rich.

A question for you - how many Scientists are religious?... and why...?

[ManDownUnder]

One has to wonder why they don't enter all the gambling houses and clean them out, eh?

It does lead me back to an age old joke... if they truly are psychic... why don't they phone me?

... and for the confused among you seeing me debate both sides of this - it's called an open mind. I'm simply relaying my personal thoughts and observations.

[Badjelly]

It's a very nice theory. I wonder if it's right.

Fighting scepticism with scepticism. What a sneeky trick!

I wonder if it's right, too, but honestly I have no idea how one could tell.

My whole point is the simple self evdent truth to be found in "we don't know what we don't know". It's possible to disprove something by finding (demonstrating and subjecting to the rigours of the scientific process) a proof other than the hypothesis, but to point and say "I don't believe it therefore it's not true" is a bit rich.

I'm afraid my reference to priests and magicians widened the scope of the discussion somewhat. I think the correct response to ignorance is to admit it. I think the religious response is to make stuff up. I think we make more progress in understanding the world if we assume it follows consistent patterns that can be investigated by devising & testing hypotheses. The alternative assumption, that the world is full of supernatural agency and miracles, can't be ruled out, but the assumption of consistency seems to have led (paradoxically) to much more marvellous stories about reality.

Re psychics, I don't think I'm saying "I don't believe it therefore it's not true". It's more that I haven't seen any good reason to believe in it, so (for the time being, pending further evidence) I don't.

Returning to psychics solving crimes, I'd be interested in any analysis that showed they were consistently useful. It seems to me they use the same old trick of reporting their (occasional) hits and concealing their (many) misses.

A question for you - how many Scientists are religious?... and why...?

Taking your questions in turn: Some. No idea, sorry.

[ManDownUnder]

Fighting scepticism with scepticism. What a sneeky trick!

I wonder if it's right, too, but honestly I have no idea how one could tell.



I'm afraid my reference to priests and magicians widened the scope of the discussion somewhat. I think the correct response to ignorance is to admit it. I think the religious response is to make stuff up. I think we make more progress in understanding the world if we assume it follows consistent patterns that can be investigated by devising & testing hypotheses. The alternative assumption, that the world is full of supernatural agency and miracles, can't be ruled out, but the assumption of consistency seems to have led (paradoxically) to much more marvellous stories about reality.

Re psychics, I don't think I'm saying "I don't believe it therefore it's not true". It's more that I haven't seen any good reason to believe in it, so (for the time being, pending further evidence) I don't.

Returning to psychics solving crimes, I'd be interested in any analysis that showed they were consistently useful. It seems to me they use the same old trick of reporting their (occasional) hits and concealing their (many) misses.



Taking your questions in turn: Some. No idea, sorry.

Respect - we're on the same page. Fun getting here too...

[idb]

Shows like 'Sensing Murder' are like the Playboy Channel.

Entertainment that plugs into the automatic reptilian bits at the top of the spinal cord without troubling the higher reasoning faculties.

The Playboy Channel sure beats Grassroots Rugby!!!

[mstriumph]

They might even get offended in advance.

as they can sense what's gonna be said, you mean?

[idb]

I didn't know the programme was on!!!