Discussion on Mentor Programme

[FROSTY:Me]

A popularity contest is exactly whats happening with some of the nominations and it isn't a good thing

Just because a particular person is popular with others doesn't mean they're able to help them in the way that they need

Poularity or proven, skillsets demonstrating to those that have seen them,ridden with them that they are capable of mentoring ?

[fLaThEaD FreD]

Right then. Let's see if I can get people wound up enough to get banned altogether.

1. Xerxesdaphat, JSG, Devil, SPB, et al have all either raised valid points, or cut to the core of what this programme is about. I rather think most people are on the training tangent at the moment.

2. A number of the nominated Mentors are dangerous to ride with or believe that mysticism is the best way to proceed down the motorcycling path. I prefer Gnosticism myself. I agree with SPB entirely. Bear in mind that some people have been party to discussions prior to launching this programme, and my attitude toward who could be regarded as a mentor was different to most of that group's, hence why I'm not involved.

3. It's not a popularity contest, but looking at how this is proceeding it has turned into one, with a few people in the background doing either some active politicing or some active moderation to make sure that the followers of the "Katman/Ixion attitude" camps are excluded or punished for speaking their minds or daring to try and defuse argumentative behaviour between the various camps. I'm still expecting my own personal Tardis out of all this.

4. I personally like the idea of gently nudging certain people to ride with certain other people. Staying alive is an attitude, not a skillset. We haven't had any "decent" deaths or near-fatal accidents to remind people of their mortality recently. I think that's because most of you pussies stop riding when it's a little bit damp or cold, leaving those with an attitude and skillset valid for sharing the road with other road users to enjoy themselves. Come Summer and we'll be back to listening to stories of self-wrought carnage.

5. The reason this has been formalised a little is to stop the attitudinally incompatible from spreading disinformation and pushing newbies into practicing skills instead of attitude and just going for a ride and having a good time. Plus despite everyone's ostrich like attitude the implied ownership and legal implications for KB's domain holder if it all goes wrong mean that he will be held responsible if someone decides to push charges against a "training" organisation that gave bad advice. That could be your Mum.

6. Mentoring can be for anything. If you want to race, someone who has previously blazed a trail can help make your introduction to racing easier. You might want a riding buddy who can help with a personal issue that needs talking over. You may want to learn the arcane arts of Stunting from someone who has experienced the pain and expense of learning it for themselves. This isn't about Sam Browne belts and Day-Glo vests. You may even want someone who can give you a few hints on how to commute swiftly with minimal risk. Up to you.

7. Most of all it's a way for a diverse group of people to impart their experience without lecturing (unless you specifically ask for a lecture). Mentoring goes both ways too. Maybe some of you Crusties/Racist or Sexist Bastards/Nanas can learn something from people you normally look down your nose at.

Don't forget though, above all, it's 99% how you look.

Mentors all have differing skills and these need to be known, as people such as myself can easily be givin the wrong impressions from postings because we are new or newish and are still trying to form our own opinions from what we read on the public forum.
I also know that there can be a lot of politicing from certain cliques behind the scenes as in so many groups.

[Ixion]

You ladies want a real mentor? ......... go to the track motott.co.nz is a good place to start and get yourself booked in

Then on the day talk to the fellows with the orange vests.

1. You will learn how to corner
2. You will learn to deal with speed
3. You might get hooked ... so be warned

And this is applicable to a young lady on a Honda C50, who just wants to ride to work (school, whatever) and home again, without being spread over the road, how? Or, indeed to our returning biker, who purged his "need for speed" 40+ years ago, and now just wants a bike for pleasant weekend rambles. But could do with some pointers about the different between 2008 and 1958.

This is what most concerns me about this whole mentoring thing. It is (despite pious protestations to the contrary) almost totally focused on the notion that "mentoring" is about showing/teaching/training someone how to ride fast. Not every rider wants that. Nor is it necessarily conducive to survival.


I am seeing some major variations in definition. Most agree that a mentor should be experienced, and a 'good rider". But what, in this context , is a "good rider". A fast rider (and many racers will not ride on the public road, because they think it too dangerous) ? a law abiding rider, whpo never gets a ticket ? a rider who does not crash? And "good" in what context? I know some riders, both fast and safe on the open road, who scarely ever ride in city traffic and actively avoid doing so. Perhaps not the most suitable for our young commutrix.

F'instance

And i agree with boomer years riding and abiltiy has nothing to do with each other.

I know people that has been riding for years and still they ride like shit

Yet, those people, riding like shit , have somehow survived for "years" , riding. Which might suggest that if they ride like shit, it is at least shit with a high survival factor.

I suggets that the administartors need to much more rigorously define their specifications.

[FROSTY:Me]

Ixion and Fred.
MY take on it --keep in mind its MY interpretation not speaking for anyone else.
What WILL happen is that things are going to settle down.
Its going to become clear that some mentors are good at helping with the ATTITUDE needed to stay alive.
Some mentors are going to be good at imparting the skills needed at a BASIC level to react propperly in a "ohh shit" situation --as refered to by The stranger--the bloke who diddnt know how to /forgot to use the front brake in an emergency situation.
Some mentors are going to be better at the next level when the attitude and the basic skillsets have"taken" -such things as lines and weighting the peg etc.
Others will be better at the racetrack stuff
-ISNT IT FANTASTIC that we have the diversity of skillsets available on offer?
ISN'T IT FANTASTIC that the senior mentors are experienced enough to see which mentor will be the best"fit" for the needs of the mentorees?

[FROSTY:Me]

thats what its all about eh.

With us young folks, most of us have a problem with authority. Give a mentor 'status' and most of us wont listen

Ok dude--Not having a go at ya here BUT--Ok You have highlighted a possible issue.
In your opinion what is the solution?

[jrandom]

Yet, those people, riding like shit , have somehow survived for "years" , riding.

'Years' doesn't necessarily imply any particular level of mileage in any particular situations and conditions.

Often it mostly implies having had a motorcycle in the garage for years.

[Ixion]

..
ISN'T IT FANTASTIC that the senior mentors are experienced enough to see which mentor will be the best"fit" for the needs of the mentorees?

Implicit in that is that a "mentoree" (a unreservedly vile term! Can we please use the correct term for the protoge of Mentor, which is Telemachus. Who, incidentally was gay. Just pointing that out) will approach a senior mentor who will assign a mentor to the applicant? But what if they dislike each other, cannot find mutally agreeable times , etc? This sounds an extremely cumbersome and bureaucratic exercise

[dipshit]

Bike-handling skills learned at trackdays apply every minute that one is riding.

Regarding attitudes, to be honest, I think that attitudes are what they are, and can't be fixed. Idiots will always be idiots. It's not so much about 'attitude', IMHO, as it is about ability to work out consequences.

Implanting "skills" without implanting a safe attitude towards your riding will probably do more harm than good. Similar parallels have been drawn with advanced car handling skills.

http://www.driveandstayalive.com/art...n-training.htm

"A word of warning: taking a course in more advanced driving skills such as emergency braking, skid control, collision avoidance maneuvers may create a new risk for you. If the extra skills make you overconfident, that cancels out the advantages of having the skills in the first place. Research has indicated that drivers who take advanced skills courses have a tendency to misuse the skills and actually have a higher crash rate."...

..."The fundamental difference, however, lies in the fact that qualifying as an advanced driver and an advanced motorcyclist (for most traffic officers achieve both qualifications) in British police forces can take upwards of 600 hours and the vast majority of this overall duration is spent learning the discipline and attitude necessary for a remarkably safe standard of driving, irrespective of the high speeds at which traffic police officers often have to travel.

And that is the key to this issue: attitude training."

[jrandom]

This sounds an extremely cumbersome and bureaucratic exercise

The only need that this system is meeting, as far as I can tell, was conjured within the minds of its creators.

It reminds me greatly of all the engineering projects I've ever worked on that had vast quantities of requirements which never actually came from a customer, and never ended up getting used by a customer.

It's just human nature to invent shit, be that implementable software requirements or a 'mentoring' authority structure, to give oneself status, without actually considering whether the 'solution' solves a real problem.

I reiterate that this entire effort appears to be primarily driven by folk getting their rocks off on slotting into the 'mentor' image.

The obvious desire to Save Others From Themselves (tm) via the setting up of a formal authority and status structure of some sort is deeply unattractive.

attitude training

George Orwell had a lot to say on that subject, too.

[fLaThEaD FreD]

Ixion and Fred.
MY take on it --keep in mind its MY interpretation not speaking for anyone else.
What WILL happen is that things are going to settle down.
Its going to become clear that some mentors are good at helping with the ATTITUDE needed to stay alive.
Some mentors are going to be good at imparting the skills needed at a BASIC level to react propperly in a "ohh shit" situation --as refered to by The stranger--the bloke who diddnt know how to /forgot to use the front brake in an emergency situation.
Some mentors are going to be better at the next level when the attitude and the basic skillsets have"taken" -such things as lines and weighting the peg etc.
Others will be better at the racetrack stuff
-ISNT IT FANTASTIC that we have the diversity of skillsets available on offer?
ISN'T IT FANTASTIC that the senior mentors are experienced enough to see which mentor will be the best"fit" for the needs of the mentorees?

In thinking.......Even those fround upon stunters can mentor those who wish to do stunting?........if that is an area they are proficient in?

[The Stranger:Me]

But I was for reals.

Oh, I realise that.
It shows loud and clear.

[nodrog:Me]

can sombody mentor me yet, or are we still fighting about it?

[FROSTY:Me]

In thinking.......Even those fround upon stunters can mentor those who wish to do stunting?........if that is an area they are proficient in?

HECK YEA (again my opinion)
Keeping in mind stunting per say isn't an issue as our mate White Trash and his lady Riff Raff demonstrated when they organised a wonderfull day of stunting and stunt practice at Mere mere.
Its like anything right place right time
-The drifter out at pukie showing off his skill --to me is stunning.
same drifter on my road at 10pm at night not so cool.

[fLaThEaD FreD]

HECK YEA (again my opinion)
Keeping in mind stunting per say isn't an issue as our mate White Trash and his lady Riff Raff demonstrated when they organised a wonderfull day of stunting and stunt practice at Mere mere.
Its like anything right place right time
-The drifter out at pukie showing off his skill --to me is stunning.
same drifter on my road at 10pm at night not so cool.

Right time, right place, right person..........controlled and safe enviroment for all.

[Kickaha]

This is what most concerns me about this whole mentoring thing. It is (despite pious protestations to the contrary) almost totally focused on the notion that "mentoring" is about showing/teaching/training someone how to ride fast.

Can you prove that statement, show us some facts to back it up or is that just "your interpretation " of whats been said

'Years' doesn't necessarily imply any particular level of mileage in any particular situations and conditions.

Some people have 1 years experience repeated 20 times rather than 20 years experience