Get ready to hit your kids...

[Ocean1]

When does protection of the vulnerable segue into self-rightous bigotry?

When it's delivered by the state. It's that simple, there's only one class of entity capable of protecting endangered kids: family or close friends. Never in recorded history has any government agency effectively supplied the help struggling or broken families need.

Many would say this has already occurred with helmet and seat-belt laws, fluoridation of water, immunisation injections etc etc.

Some such policy makes sense. A minority insisting on not being innoculated is the reason Polio, TB and Hooping gough aren't extinct. If, however your choices aren't hurting others there is not the slightest excuse to legislate to control it.

The proof of over-zealous information usage is the number of people who are wrongly victimised eg. had their children removed. Yes, it happens but always for cause. If this action was commonly taken by mistake, the media would be all over it.

Dude, with the greatest respect, (and a kind of hopeful wonder at your inocence), you couldn't be more incorrect. Yes there are arseholes out there who abuse their kids. The government not only can't do anything about that but their attempts to intervene in an increasing number of family situations has done tragic and entirely avoidable damage.

And as for the press... If you'd been accused of harming your kids in any way would you be calling the press?

Pass. I'm sure you are right. No answer really. There is plenty of help available to parents but usually those who need it are inarticulate and fear authority.

There are answers, ones that might sometimes even work. The help that's currently available... doesn't.

And those affected are far from restricted to the inarticulate.

[Winston001]

Well team, I'm feeling a bit like Pollyanna after reading the above thoughts - all of which incidentally I respect. Guess our experiences differ.

I am fortunate. My wife and I are educated, quietly self-confident, and active in our community. Any problems we've had with our three children - small medical stuff - have all been addressed very effectively by the "system". Admittedly my son's testicular torsion was misdiagnosed (4 yr old) so the testicle died, but that was a medical judgement and nothing to do with general healthcare etc.

As young parents we went to Parent Centre seminars, read books on child development, and were in a parents support group. In fact my wife even started a special group for premature babies.

If we didn't like what we were told, we went further. Our friends have had similarly good experiences raising their children.

Nevertheless many new parents don't have the confidence or knowledge to deal with the myriad problems children bring. That's why Plunkett , La Leche, Parent Centre etc exist.

I'm genuinely sad to learn that some of you have had bad experiences and lack of expert support. It must be gutting.

[Winston001]

Ocean1 60 sec worth of distance run.. ♂

Quote: Ocean -



When it's delivered by the state. It's that simple, there's only one class of entity capable of protecting endangered kids: family or close friends. Never in recorded history has any government agency effectively supplied the help struggling or broken families need. [/quote]



Where were the family when James Whakaruia died? The Kahui twins etc etc ebloodycetera....... Sorry man, I think the same but am a bit cynical about the modern "family"

[James Deuce]

That's the modern minority. Thanks to weeks and weeks of media coverage with this stuff every time something hideous happens we end up lumping everyone into the same basket. There are plenty of "disadvantaged" families out there working hard to be less "disadvantaged" and cynically lumping whole socio-economic groupings into the same bucket is doing 99.9% of the country a huge disservice.

Don't buy into the propaganda.

[Ocean1]

Nevertheless many new parents don't have the confidence or knowledge to deal with the myriad problems children bring. That's why Plunkett , La Leche, Parent Centre etc exist.

Nothing to do with knowledge or confidence. You seem to have the idea it's a lower-socio-economic phenomenon, I've known very competent professionals, including senior health pros fall foul of one of the various social "services" taking an interest in their kids. They found the "help" "offered" just as intrusive, if not invasive, and far too often just as damaging.

Also, Plunkett doesn’t exist any more. In spite of having been the model for such organisations worldwide it was starved of funding and abandoned a couple of years ago, it failed to comply with the brave new policies.

And personally I found the local La Leche representative a benightedly unintelligent drone, capable, (just), of parroting the pamphlet she distributed and successfully managing to convey strongly to all in sundry that men, (fathers in particular), had no part to play in raising kids.

I’m perfectly prepared to believe that none of the above is a problem in the deep south, they often aren’t once you’re far enough from the bullshit. The resource I’ve most often known produce positive, lasting results is Tough Love, and that, dude, is help in the proper sense.

[bomma]

cudnt be arsed reading 21 pages but we studied this a lil in one of my papers and the thing is that in this amendment, it says (as the first one did) that parents are allowed to "lightly smack" their kids (who's to define "lightly"??) but when the top cop dude (cant remember rank or name) was asked by the media, he stated that no smacking would be tolerated....there were two separate messages coming out and it caused a whole lot of commotion. personally ive been smacked as a child and wudnt wish it on others coz there are obvious reprocussions but can you imagine how much harder it would be to discipline these lil monsters if they knew they werent legally allowed to be hit?!?!

should build a quiet room and keep the canes and paddles in there....and if you dont have kids you can use that room for "other purposes"

[Winston001]

That's the modern minority. Thanks to weeks and weeks of media coverage with this stuff every time something hideous happens we end up lumping everyone into the same basket. There are plenty of "disadvantaged" families out there working hard to be less "disadvantaged" and cynically lumping whole socio-economic groupings into the same bucket is doing 99.9% of the country a huge disservice.

Don't buy into the propaganda.

Mmmm.....but the facts are that about one child a month dies in NZ at the hands of family members. According to Starship and the police, that is just the tip of the iceberg, there are hundreds of children seriously injured by parental assault every year.

Making a noise about it when reported is justified. If no-one speaks up, the abuse will continue. Again I have to ask where the wider family are in these situations. Friends? Neighbours?

But ok, fair enough that the vast majority of families love their kids and do their best. I totally agree we shouldn't tar everyone with the actions of a small awful minority.

[MSTRS:Me]

I totally agree we shouldn't tar everyone with the actions of a small awful minority.

But the law, and it's supporters, do/es ...

[Winston001]

Nothing to do with knowledge or confidence. You seem to have the idea it's a lower-socio-economic phenomenon, I've known very competent professionals, including senior health pros fall foul of one of the various social "services" taking an interest in their kids. They found the "help" "offered" just as intrusive, if not invasive, and far too often just as damaging.

Also, Plunkett doesn’t exist any more. In spite of having been the model for such organisations worldwide it was starved of funding and abandoned a couple of years ago, it failed to comply with the brave new policies.

And personally I found the local La Leche representative a benightedly unintelligent drone, capable, (just), of parroting the pamphlet she distributed and successfully managing to convey strongly to all in sundry that men, (fathers in particular), had no part to play in raising kids.

I’m perfectly prepared to believe that none of the above is a problem in the deep south, they often aren’t once you’re far enough from the bullshit. The resource I’ve most often known produce positive, lasting results is Tough Love, and that, dude, is help in the proper sense.

We can certainly agree on Tough Love. Mind you, its harder to do in practise than I expected but works.

Maybe we are advantaged in the provinces, smaller populations, greater sense of family and community support, dunno but an interesting thought.

Fair comment too that it isn't just a socio-economic problem although generally, that is the theme of troubled families whom I deal with.

I guess this discussion falls foul of generalisations when many posters are thinking of specific situations - which the rest of us don't know about. Kids with personality disorders, nascent mental health problems, physical health issues, faetal alcohol syndrome, abuse by someone etc etc. Damn it is hard being a parent and there are so many risks outside your control.

[MisterD]

Damn it is hard being a parent and there are so many risks outside your control.

Right there is the nub of the gist. The state is geared towards putting everything under the state's control, right down to no bottle feeding, no smacking...how long until the watermelons (green on the outside...) are trying to ban disposable nappies along with real light bulbs? What we need are real support services geared towards putting things back into parents' control...dreaming, I know.