Annoying Christian sayings

[yod]

Yep, the christian answer is awesomely convenient - God just made it all. It is much easier to believe than evolution.

yep, the scientists have got it wrong
the atheists have got it wrong
the agnostics have got it wrong
the hindus have got it wrong
islam has got it wrong
the buddhists have got it wrong
the mormons have got it wrong
the jehovahs have got it wrong

but you guys have nailed it

phew, for a minute there I thought you had no proof

[avgas]

forgive dont mean forget or no punisment

Then what is forgiveness? Seems kinda irrelevent if ignorance is abosolution.

[Slyer]

Both creation and evolution give an account for what happened when time began. Since non of us were there, we can not come to a 100% conclusion.
Evolution requires forces to act against entropy. We could also have a look at our DNA being digital codes....
Yep, the christian answer is awesomely convenient - God just made it all. It is much easier to believe than evolution. Once you break it down, all the chances of it randomly occurring, the anthropic principal etc, it takes like (guess) 10 times more faith to believe in cellular evolution (information gain at a cellular level) as an explanation for life than it does to believe in God and the way he just busted out the universe!

Edit
"But when we are talking in everyday language it is essentially a fact, the same as how gravity is a fact."
Yep, there is widespread acceptance of evolution in teh scientific community, just like there is widespread beliefe of santa by under-10s. I know thats a bit of a low blow, but you are appealing to the argument 'everyone else does it so it must be right'. Which bridge are we jumping off here?....lol
My point is there is a big difference between what you call "essentially a fact" and gravity being a fact.

I've heard all of this before, this post is going to be so much work to defend against but here goes...

Both creation and evolution give an account for what happened when time began. Since non of us were there, we can not come to a 100% conclusion.

We have a few options in this situation, either we make something up that seems to fit (or in this case believe a book that someone else made up) or we can use the scientific method to determine what the real answer is.
Evolution is vastly superior in that it has a lot of evidence to support it and it has made many predictions that turned out to be correct, let me point out one example. This is something that I myself wrote.

Evolution:
Meet Tiktaalik, Tiktaalik is a tropical fish fossil that was found in the Canadian Arctic, at approximately 78° North latitude. The climate is extremely harsh for all but a few weeks of each year. During this time, the ground only thaws 6 inches below the surface, making it very difficult for large plants to grow. Consequently, there are no trees or even bushes in the high Arctic. Instead, there is tundra: a landscape of mosses, lichen, and hardy grasses that can cope with the short growing seasons and harsh temperatures of around -28°C.”
Now I’ll let you ponder this for a moment, how could a tropical “fish” possibly be found embedded in rock in an environment where temperatures in winter average -28°C? Tropical fish are effective at living in warm tropical waters but could never survive in an environment as cold as the Canadian Arctic.
Furthermore, how did the scientists who were digging specifically for Tiktaalik know where to look? Surely the best place to look for ancient fossils of a tropical fish is in the tropics? What a crazy place to look?
The answer is that fossils buried in rock are unaffected by the cold, the Tiktaalik died in the tropics, long before it made it to the Canadian Arctic, but HOW? “The answer has to do with continental drift. Three hundred and seventy-five million years ago in the Devonian, the world did not look anything like it does today. First of all, the climate was much warmer overall, so the north and south pole were not covered in ice. Secondly, the continents were not arranged in the same way as they are today. The continent Tiktaalik lived on was not located at 78° N. Instead, it was located almost entirely in the southern hemisphere. And the stream Tiktaalik probably lived in was located in the Northern part of that continent, very close to the Equator. “
Ok, that explains it, but what that doesn’t explain is how the scientists knew exactly where in the world to dig and exactly what age rock they needed to dig in, the Tiktaalik could have lived at any time in the past, how did they know to dig in 375 million year old rock? The prediction was made using modern evolutionary theory.
There are a lot of ancient tropical fish that have been discovered in similar locations to Tiktaalik, but there are many things that make Tiktaalik really special and these can be observed by looking at its physical features.

It is incomplete but you get the idea. Evolution explains a lot of the things that Creation fails to, and it explains them very well.
Read this entire site: http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/
More tomorrow.

[Jez]

just to shit stir a little

[Sanx]

Kind of apt, given yod's post:

Ah hello. It's nice to see you all here. Now, as the more perceptive of you have probably realised by now, this is Hell. And I am the Devil.

Good Evening.

But you can call me Toby if you like. We try to keep things informal here. As well as infernal. That's just a little joke; I tell it every time.

Now, you're all here for ... eternity ... which I hardly need tell you is a heck of a long time! So you'll all get to know each other pretty well by the end. But for now I'm going to have to split you up into groups.

Will you STOP SCREAMING? ... Thank you.

Now, murderers. Murderers? Over here please. Thank you!

Looters and pillagers over here. Thieves, if you could join them? And lawyers, you're with that lot too.

Err, fornicators, if you could step forward? My god, there are a lot of you. Could I split you up into adulterers and the rest. Male adulterers, if you could just form a line in front of that small guillotine in the corner there.

Err. The French? Are you here? If you'd just like to come down here with the Germans. I'm sure you'll have plenty to talk about.

OK. Atheists? Atheists? Over here please. You must be feeling a right bunch of nitwits! Never mind.

And finally, Christians. Christians? I'm sorry, the Jews were right. If you could all come down here, that would be very kind.

OK! Right, well are there any questions? Yes? No, I'm afraid we don't have any toilets. If you'd read your bible you might have seen that it was 'damnation without relief'. So if you didn't go before you came then I'm afraid you're not going to enjoy yourself very much, but then I believe that's the idea.

Right, it's over to you, Adolf. And I'll catch you all later at the BBQ. Bye!

[alanzs]

I always liked "Jesus saves, Moses invests."
Amen bro....

[blue eyed savage]

Sheesh. Have you actually read that work of fiction you like so much? Moses didn't lay down the law. God did, inscribed the ten commandments on some tablets and gave them to Moses. He, with Aaron, then went about (mis)interpreting them. But plenty of laws had been laid down by god before that, and plenty since.



Oh ... so god got it wrong the first time around, and then clarified himself a few thousand years later. But I thought god was meant to be infallible?



So - you have a get out of jail free card, and that makes you want to use it less? That makes sense.



It makes it easier to believe when you fail to consider the fundamental questions such an explanation raises, like: if god created the world, where did god come from?

You made 4 good comments there. Might not have time to reply to them all tonight, getting tired an all that. Im gonna number them.

1 Yep, sorry, i oversimplified what went down for the sake of easy reading by others, my bad. Your right, God had laid down laws before (and after) the 10 commandments, but i suspect there arnt that many people here who are familiar with them. Not to sure where you were going with "...went about (mis)interpreting them..." im just gonna let it go.

2 The law was just a temporary cover for sin, the old testament is all about how God would send a savior/Christ to fully furfil the requirement of the law (the 10 commandments that Israle was to live by). There were also laws regarding sin before the ones God gave to moses which were for all the nations, not just Israel. But all the nations basically said screw you God, so he decided to set apart one nation to live by his rules.
Summary- God did not 'get it wrong', it was just like a patch on ya front tyre til you can get it to the shop. I don't know why he didn't just fix it then and there, i might have to read up a bit (lol God works in mysterious.....sorry)

3 Yeah, straight up i can see your point. Its not that black and white though. Is it the Japanese, where if you save their life they then become your servant or something?
Basically, cause of sin in the world we do heaps of things that piss God off, and we're all going to go to hell for it. Sux to be us, real easy to run and hide/deny that one. Once you accept it, and realise your screwed, you wanna do something about it. I often think about this sort of stuff when going for a nice cruse on the bike. And it so cool knowing that the answer is accepting that some guy you dint know (who knows you) got killed ages ago on your behalf. And when you accept that there is a problem, and a solution that doesn't require work or anything hard on your part, it gives you a real good feeling, im again gonna appeal to a good summer ride. Having this awareness on your mind then slowly changes the way you think. So like, if you ever get round to thinking about what it actually cost God with this free gift he gives everyone (salvation, his son dieing), you may also slowly come to appreciate that if we are worth dieing for, then he might be worth listening to. Since he cares enough to fix/forgive all the shit i do, then he probably has a optimal plan for getting through life (like taking the best line around a corner). Its like God above Pukekohe raceway in a chopper, giving you instructions while you race it for the first time. So he gives me a get outa jail card when i take the corner wrong, but i still accept that he knows the best path to take, and try and not take the wrong ones. Did i mention how much I screw up?
I think that answered your third point.

Fourth point - God created the universe and everything in it - but he's outside it. Thats like outside teh scope of science. The tiny bit of quantium physics i do know gives evidence that our reality is just a subset of a larger one. Think of The Matrix, its like we really are in it, and Gods outside it (in his helicopter if you want, although probably on an ZX10R somewhere).
Anywho, as i was saying in the quote you highlighted, we can't know where God came from etc - he made time and space - he exists outside of it. I do not believe the human mind can comprehend what this means - all i can think of is lots and lots of time, not 'before time', 'outside of time' etc. btw thats how he is omnipresent and all that, can see all the events in time/entire timeline at once.

We can have a go at free will if you want tomorrow, but that's nearing an hour I'm not getting back cause of this post. Thank God for weekend sleep-ins and getting extra sleep!

[Sanx]

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[Headbanger]

Well, Thank goodness thats all explained. I can sleep easy tonight.

[Sanx]

And some more wise words from George Carlin

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[Subike]

what is the real truth of this matter?
I dont know , but

The truth I believe in is my Truth.
The truth you believe in is your Truth.
They are different, and thats the Truth.
But does that mean that my truth is wrong?
Or that your truth is wrong?
No. Because its the truth we each BELIEVE in, so it IS the truth, untill I or you accept something else ss being the truth.

I accept that your truth is right for you, it is your choice to believe it.

My truth, That God is real, etc etc etc, is right for me, can you accept that?

I am not into arguments on this subject, and cutting and pasting is a bore, but I will recomend a read for those who sincerly want answers. It is one mans view, sure, but it explains heaps if you have the courage to read it.


THE NEW EVIDENCE
That Demands A Verdict

Author Josh McDowell

publisher,Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Enjoy your life, I enjoy mine, Im happy God gave it to me ( my belieif, OK with that?)

[Disco Dan]

I dont like it when people tell me "praise the lord"

Why what has this lord done anyway? I understand praising children when they pee in their potty and not on the carpet. But a grown man? Mind boggles.




p/t

[Gubb]

How does being a homo help anyone survive?

But God created us in his own image, that makes God a homo.

[jrandom]

This thread is rubbish (apart from Graham's initial post). I hope the mods have the sense to give it its own space in PD instead of dumping it on top of the Scottish thread.

3, 2, 1...

[10bikekid]

what is the real truth of this matter?
I dont know , but

The truth I believe in is my Truth.
The truth you believe in is your Truth.
They are different, and thats the Truth.
But does that mean that my truth is wrong?
Or that your truth is wrong?
No. Because its the truth we each BELIEVE in, so it IS the truth, untill I or you accept something else ss being the truth.

I accept that your truth is right for you, it is your choice to believe it.



My truth, That God is real, etc etc etc, is right for me, can you accept that?

I am not into arguments on this subject, and cutting and pasting is a bore, but I will recomend a read for those who sincerly want answers. It is one mans view, sure, but it explains heaps if you have the courage to read it.


THE NEW EVIDENCE
That Demands A Verdict

Author Josh McDowell

publisher,Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Enjoy your life, I enjoy mine, Im happy God gave it to me ( my belieif, OK with that?)

Well said, theres certainly some truth in that

And I would add to that though our Truths may be subjective, Ultimate Truth does not Change and it should be all true seekers aim to draw as near to that as possible what ever the cost,

PS, Subike, as you can see Im right into your Harley Truth