Training

[Trudes]

Good points Jim. I agree and it gives me the shits when I follow people who hang over the white line, I'm always just waiting for a truck to come round that corner and knock their block off!!
I guess it comes down to the attitude thing again. If you go to trackdays with the intention of merely getting faster so you can ride on the road faster then you probably will achieve that.... until you have an accident.
You're right about the late braking etc, I've learnt through trackdays that I can brake late, just before turning in, but don't do that on the road as I prefer to get my corner speed down to a speed that I feel I might be able to avoid a hazard if I have to, whereas on the track there is probably never going to be that hazard there, the track also teaches you nothing about blind corners, as there are none (that I have seen).
As I said I only use it to brush up on my basic riding techniques (smooth throttle control is my main practice drill) and to have a bit of fun in a fairly safe environment.
I always get a giggle out of the people who go like the clappers down the straights and then crawl around the corners and wonder if they ride like that on the road too, maybe they're practicing something... what I don't know.
I always remember Bruce telling me that the best riders are the ones that can keep a constant, smooth and controlled speed, not the ones who pile down every straight piece of road and then hit the picks on the corners and then give the throttle a massive twist on the exit. (Not good for the tyres and suspension either) A good drill I find is to ride like you have a pillion on board, you want to make the ride as smooth and comfortable as you can for them so they don't unbalance the bike or hit you in the back of the head.

[Jantar]

Exactly. Trackdays can be good training for the road if used the way Trudes describes. But compare these two quotes:

I can spot people who've used Trackdays to "improve" their cornering on the road. They usually brake really late and turn in early, setting their apex speed instead of their corner entry speed and dangling their upper body over the centre line.....

I was following a bloke with a Highlanders flag on the back of his bike and the number plate SRJYM. What a good rider he was – hardly surprising from a fellow Highlanders supporter. He didn’t touch the brakes all the way from Wairoa to Napier and rode at a very good pace.

Now, which is the better rider? I know which one I'd rather be riding with.

[MyGSXF:Me]

So I don't really know what training I would have, but even at 36 I reckon I would benefit massively from good training.

I would thoroughly recommend you (& everyone else!! ) pay a visit to Andrew & Lynne at "Roadsafe" in Wellington!!

http://www.roadsafe.co.nz/

I've done several of their rider training courses over the past 3 years & they are totally worth every penny!!

Topics covered include: low speed control, braking & emergency stops, counter-steering, cornering, hazard avoidance, risk management, roadcraft etc.

Here's a post I put up after a course a couple of years ago..

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...98&postcount=1

Going for a "hard out blat" at trackdays, the lines & braking etc are very different from what is required on the road. however, I agree with Trudes & Jantar, that if the time can be used as a learning experience rather than a "blat" then it can be valuable!

On the road, to be a smooth & consistent rider is more important than being fast!!

[Trudes]

Good point Jantar, maybe a good drill for all riders would be to jump on the back of the bike of the person like Jim was describing and then on the back of the Highlanders supporters bike and see which one feels safer and more in control, may change the way a few people ride and realise that it's not all about how fast you can go, eh.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The problem is those people tend to be charismatic and advocate a type of riding that isn't a tenable long term approach to "real-world" motorcycling, and the motorcycle dynamics involved at 100km/hr are vastly different to those at 200 km/hr. Likewise the differences between 50 km/hr and 100 km/hr are huge. They perpetrate the myth that track days have relevance as training days for road riding, because they learn the limits of their bike. They don't. They learn the limits of their knowledge in regard to riding quickly on a race track.


Going to a track day would be fun, but it isn't going to teach me anything except which way Taupo goes and how much it costs to trailer a broken bike from Taupo to Wellington. People forget I've been "there" before and it was a massive mistake that I still pay for. Race or ride on the road? There are small elements of cross over but I would respectfully suggest that attempting a fulsome career in both at the same time is asking to get hurt or killed. The mental attitudes are hugely different and take massive amounts of maturity to switch between, a level most blokes don't hit until their 50s.

I agree with you entirely about the relevance of balls to the wall trackday riding not being that relevant to road riding because you need a different skillset and attitude entirely. Having said that you miss the point entirely: the point of trackdays is FUN in a controlled environment.

A lot of people do trackdays and don't lunch their bikes and have a good time doing it. Me included (well except once and I still managed to ride the bike home).

road riding is a much much more dangerous proposition.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Good point Jantar, maybe a good drill for all riders would be to jump on the back of the bike of the person like Jim was describing and then on the back of the Highlanders supporters bike and see which one feels safer and more in control, may change the way a few people ride and realise that it's not all about how fast you can go, eh.

I hate pillioning. It scares me shitless.

[Trudes]

I hate pillioning. It scares me shitless.

Shit, SAME!!!!
Maybe because I haven't ridden on the back of many Highlanders supporters bikes!!

[HenryDorsetCase]

No it doesn't. Mentoring isn't connected to training. By that logic LTNZ is connected to training, training that they have publicly denounced.

If you want training look in the Yellow Pages.

Need training? Everyone needs training. Very few get it. Even fewer seek it again after one course. Most think that circulating a racetrack against a stopwatch run by their "girlfriend" is all the training they need. Being taught how to ride quickly around a racetrack is the type of "over-confidence" training that Government organisations hate with a passion, and with good reason.

A lot of the training courses I've attended don't spend enough time actually on the road. Or off road, depending on what you're being trained in.

I want to know what to do when a Concrete mixer changes across 2 lanes abruptly, cutting me off and crushing me against a barrier. I want to know how to avoid even getting into that position. I really don't think that shaving 2/10ths of a lap off Taupo (or Eastern Creek - WTF, this is NZ, not Aus - are you A Merkin or something?) will help me there.

You are being obtuse: I am sure you know that Eastern Creek refers to the superbike school.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Shit, SAME!!!!
Maybe because I haven't ridden on the back of many Highlanders supporters bikes!!

what about the back of a Harley down queen street??

[Trudes]

what about the back of a Harley down queen street??

HA! No, I prefer to keep my boobies inside my jacket in public!

[James Deuce]

I agree with you entirely about the relevance of balls to the wall trackday riding not being that relevant to road riding because you need a different skillset and attitude entirely. Having said that you miss the point entirely: the point of trackdays is FUN in a controlled environment.

A lot of people do trackdays and don't lunch their bikes and have a good time doing it. Me included (well except once and I still managed to ride the bike home).

road riding is a much much more dangerous proposition.

I haven't missed the point at all. The point is the poll starter views track time as rider training. It isn't, unless the point is how to ride around a race track.

Yes the point is to have fun at a trackday. It's NOT training for riding a bike on the road.

I don't have fun at trackdays, or more correctly I do until I load the bike into alternative transport home.

This is NZ. The CSS at Eastern Creek is well outside my price range and I would imagine outside 98% of the people I know. It is probably the worst example of track time as rider training for the road. Keith Code's ideas are brilliant for the track (if you can stretch out and internalise what the over-intellectual hippy is saying) but you have to be careful about how you apply his ideas to the road. A lot of what he talks about is cutting out the mythology of motorcycling and replacing it with technique created from demonstrable and repeatable fact. All good. But it's targetted at creating super fast racers.

[Katman]

I'm all for track days - there should be more of them. As has been said they're a great form of safely releasing peoples pent up enthusiasm for speed.

The only danger with them comes when people try to put into practice on the road what they've learned on the track.

And that danger can become far greater when new and inexperience riders attend trackdays with the purported intention of "improving their riding".

[James Deuce]

Oh cool. Now I'm the Nazi.

[jrandom]

Oh cool. Now I'm the Nazi.

A little bit, aye.



Quite A Lot Of Editing:

By the way, all this theorising about trackdays is theorising. It's not driven by experience or data, and it seems to be coming (no offense, Jim) from folk who haven't actually had any decent time on the track themselves. Get out there and do it and you'll see what folk mean regarding learning to ride - after track time, what used to be 'technical' road riding becomes a breeze, giving you far more cognitive capacity available to think strategically about keeping yourself safe.

Personally, I go slow as hell on the road a lot of the time, usually because I simply can't see what's around the corner. And I like the fact that I know, from experience, that the pace I'm riding at when I can't see what's around the corner is about 30% of what the bike and I can do. It gives a far bigger margin for error when something that shouldn't be there is around the corner.

Without practice on racetracks, that 30%-of-known-capability can be more like 80%, and it's very difficult to reduce that, because it's never safe to explore the boundaries. So when shit hits the fan, you only have 20% available.

Yes, there are idiots who stay at 80% regardless and just speed up on the road as they get more time on the track, but those people are idiots. No manner of training or anything else can give them the mental horsepower to save themselves. I don't see catering for the lowest common denominator as a particularly good idea.

[James Deuce]

Doesn't stop me from calling BS when trying to label a day at the funpark training though.