Sensing Murder

[pzkpfw]

Can water run uphill - how's that for a question to be examined? Would you class that as nonsense and dimiss it outright?

Just because water runs downhill - does that mean it can't run uphill? (or against the force of gravity in case you're wondering how I'm putting a spin on this...)

I sense a trap, as I vaguely remember some riddle about this, but in essence I'd of course say "no it can't". if you come up with some situation where it does then I'd have learned something.

But I'd be right to dismiss it at first.

You still don't get the coffee/levitation example. Some claims are simply nonsense.

Yes - wildy and wacky ideas can and should be proposed... examined... tested and learned from accordingly. See my question above re water running uphill - what is the problem with that?

So would you like to examine the Dragon under my seat?

You need to draw a line at what has any chance of being correct.

Fairies, elves and psycics are all on the same side of that line.

Disagree - you're reading too much into what I'm saying and trying to make it absolute.

I am as absolute as you, just in reverse, and you don't see that as yours is the fuzzy "everything is possible" stance.

My position is simple - when presented with evidence of a phenominon of whatever form, one is foolish to dismiss it in the ansence of compelling evidence to the contrary. If there is uncertainty we should be satisfied to say there is uncertainty rather than take a position either for or against anything proposed that attempts to explain that phenominon.

What evidence?
What uncertainty?
Has a murder been solved yet?

(Good to see you've now introduced the "evidence" thing though; previously you've basically been holding onto mere suggestion. Now "evidence" - that can be examined. Of course it has, in the case of ESP, Psychics and such. But never has it been proven.)

Or to put it another way - using the scientific method - prove to me there is no such thing as psychic ability. Free reign - go for gold. Until you can do that, I reserve the right to say I'm not sure. I also think that if you are sure, you need to be able to demonstrate that, and also be flexible enough to admit when you're not able to do so, or are actually uncertain of something.

No, negatives can't be proved.

I can't prove there is no God either - as if there is a God then I can assume he/she/it is powerful enough to hide his/her/its existance from me.

That does not make the existance of God true, nor should I accept the possibility of one.

Do you really think I can say I've got an under-seat-dragon - until you've proven it doesn't exist?

How would you do that?

[ManDownUnder]

So would you like to examine the Dragon under my seat?

Sure would - but since I can't detect it's presence I need to rely on you to help me examine it.

Go for it. I remain cynical until I'm convinced.

You need to draw a line at what has any chance of being correct.

Fair call. I'm cynical about your dragon given the nature of conversation in which it was introduced.

I am as absolute as you, just in reverse, and you don't see that as yours is the fuzzy "everything is possible" stance.

You're right - because I don't. I'm saying if some evidence is provided that suggests something exists, in the absence of anything categorically ruling it out, then there remains a chance that it does indeed exist.

What evidence?
What uncertainty?
Has a murder been solved yet?

The whole show is based on what is purported to be psychic phenomina If the show is accurate is reporting the psychics in reading a map and taking a car to the exact location where a body was found - in the greater Auckland region, with no external or additonal cues... I'd take that as a strong indicator something is going on - wouldn't you?

(That's the evidence).

Uncertainty comes in the form of me remaining unconvinced it's true - but then I'm also not convinced it's not. Not doubt non psychic experts can rely on their prowess and state psychich phenomina does not exist.

But then psychic experts can clima the opposite. Who would you give more credability?

Has a murder been solved yet - No. I don't believe any of them have. This would be through a combination of the lack of evidence, and the lack of admission of that evidence by the NZ court system

(Good to see you've now introduced the "evidence" thing though; previously you've basically been holding onto mere suggestion. Now "evidence" - that can be examined. Of course it has, in the case of ESP, Psychics and such. But never has it been proven.)

"Evidence" embraces the concepts of both "court of law" standard of demonstration, as well as something that is evident (i.e. a cloud forms - so the water in the air becomes evident).

Like I said - locatin the spot a body was fgound int he greater Auckland region would be pretty impressive.! Combined with the chances of getting the age, sex, race and cause of death right...

What would the statistical chances of that be do you reckon? 1 in a couple of million? Considerably higher I'd suggest?

No, negatives can't be proved.

actually some of them can, but not in this case - again - just being picky for the sake of completeness

I can't prove there is no God either - as if there is a God then I can assume he/she/it is powerful enough to hide his/her/its existance from me.

That does not make the existance of God true, nor should I accept the possibility of one.

Entirely over to you. It's worth noting a number of leading minds in the scientific field believe (and believed) in God. Einstein was one, and numerous of his peers also.

The same holds true today. (Some Psychics do too - and some don't - interesting huh?)

Out of curiousity - what cost is it to you to nolt consider the possibility of a God, or of... well - anything for that matter?

Do you really think I can say I've got an under-seat-dragon - until you've proven it doesn't exist?

Not personally... but if you genuinely believed there is (and I don't think you do for a second) then I'd give you the opportunity to convince me, not just now - but on going...

How would you do that?

I can't - that's my exact point. Thank you

And basic logic dictates that it leaves things in a state of uncertainty. Incredibly bloody unlikely for sure... and if you (or to avoid it being personal) if a friend of mine insisted there was a dragon under their seat there would be a reason for it. THAT is what I'd want to find if I could.

Most likely hallucinations or a brain chemical imbalance or mental illness...

Back to the psychics though - the stuff they claim to channel is pretty restrictive knowledge, and if the reporting is accurate then yeah - wow.

Righto - have to go home but last thing the water running uphill. Quite right. In a quantum state where atomic vibration is reduce to zero (or below some critical limit) the effects of gravity stop applying for some reason and droplets can flow uphill out of their containers.

There's also a number of experiments dem,onstrating water "flowing uphill" on a vibrating plate due to surface tension elongating the droplets yada yada but that's not nearly so cool as the quantum example in my opinion.

[scumdog]

OK, you can say "Well prove the psychics are wrong" - but that's not the point.

The point is that I'm waiting to hear of ONE murder being actually solved by a psychic. (Let alone they have 'solved several' as some claim)

[Flatcap]

OK, you can say "Well prove the psychics are wrong" - but that's not the point.

The point is that I'm waiting to hear of ONE murder being actually solved by a psychic. (Let alone they have 'solved several' as some claim)

Ha! It would be amusing to see the psychic giving evidence in court.

"I sense that Bob killed his wife and buried her near water"

Perhaps actual investigative effort would be required to secure a conviction....

[spudchucka]

Personally i think that the whole psychic murder solving thing can only really have one of two possible realities. Its either a complete hoax or its utterly genuine. I don't see there being any middle ground and I'm totally on the fence until I see any tangible worth to their work. If they could actually find the remains instead of just pointing to the map and saying its in this area I'd be willing to believe but so far there's been nothing of any real substance to cause me to get off the fence.

[Flatcap]

Personally i think that the whole psychic murder solving thing can only really have one of two possible realities. Its either a complete hoax or its utterly genuine. I don't see there being any middle ground and I'm totally on the fence until I see any tangible worth to their work. If they could actually find the remains instead of just pointing to the map and saying its in this area I'd be willing to believe but so far there's been nothing of any real substance to cause me to get off the fence.

Well, I hope you don't get splinters in your scrotum...

[Murray]

Back to the initial question. How can the police not solve it when they know it was a big, repainted green, old Ford from within the Waikato who attended the party along with a lot of other local waikato people and there were two people in the car and they know approx what time it happened. They knew all this and the physchic's actually added nothing to what the police already knew except that maybe someone in the BP in Morrinsville may know something???

You would think this case should have been long over rover!!!

[slofox]

a big, repainted green, old Ford from within the Waikato !

I only borrowed it!!! Honest!!!! It ain't mine!!!

[Skyryder]

I sense a trap, as I vaguely remember some riddle about this, but in essence I'd of course say "no it can't". if you come up with some situation where it does then I'd have learned something.

Liquid can 'run uphill' by way of a siphon but it must exit lower than the source.

Something to do with air pressure.


Skyyrder

[Skyryder]

Michal Laws was on about this on Friday. Something about not solving one case. I can keep an open mind on a lot of wacky things but psychics and those that claim that they can predict the future 'aint' one of them. For those that believe and claim they have the 'gift' I'll go halves in Lotto if you can give me the winning number.


Skyyrder

[ManDownUnder]

Just to clarify my position on this - Spuddy summed it up. I'm not arguing that psychics are for real.

I'm simply arging the case they can't be ruled out because someone (or a lot of someones) thinks it is nonsense and label it accordingly. They can do that - no problems, but please don't expect me to believe what someone else believes just because they say so. Sounds like a religion argument of old?

[Taz]

The moon is hollow. Aliens live there.

[cold comfort]

Michal Laws was on about this on Friday. Something about not solving one case. I can keep an open mind on a lot of wacky things but psychics and those that claim that they can predict the future 'aint' one of them. For those that believe and claim they have the 'gift' I'll go halves in Lotto if you can give me the winning number.


Skyyrder

Absolutely -to quote Raybon Kan (Sunday Star times) "I see dud people". Names and addresses of the criminals please!

[Lias]

Absolutely -to quote Raybon Kan (Sunday Star times) "I see dud people". Names and addresses of the criminals please!

That was a really great piece he wrote.. had me cracking up.. nearly caused a blue with the missus thou because she believes in that claptrap.