NZ Police public image

**drummer** · 4th May 2005, 03:33

Originally Posted by Indoo

[Unfortunately and somewhat stupidly maybe they actually thought that they could help a few people. I've got a degree and all that, i could make twice what i make in the private sector. But why should i expect others to do a job for me i didn't have the balls to do myself?

Give me strength! here have a medal...

**Clockwork** · 4th May 2005, 07:28

Your post #1084 above has just demonstrated everything Drummer & Funkyfly have been saying about the attitude displayed by some officers. If you do your job with that chip on your shoulder then don't be offended because members of the non-criminal public (yes, we do exist) are starting to express dissatisfaction with the Police.

You may feel you are simply refelecting the publics attitude back at them but as you implied in your post, Police Officers are a higher form of life than the rest of us so maybe we should expect better from them.

**James Deuce** · 4th May 2005, 07:49

Originally Posted by Clockwork

Your post #1084 above has just demonstrated everything Drummer & Funkyfly have been saying about the attitude displayed by some officers. If you do job with that chip on your shoulder then don't be offended because members of the non-criminal public (yes, we do exist) are starting to express dissatisfaction with the Police.

You may feel you are simply refelecting the publics attitude back at them but as you implied in your post, Police Officers are a higher form of life than the rest of us so maybe we should expect better from them.

I just read, and reread post 1084, and I just can't read into it what you did. Did you remove "the I've been indoctrinated by the media to expect a cynical, laissez faire brute everytime I deal with a police person" filters before you read it?

It's getting a bit out of hand, to perform character assasinations on people you've never met just because of their occupation. The steadfast refusal to separate Government policy from Policing is, well, really, really OLD.

If you guys came up with a new tune, you might find yourself in a meaningful and worthy debate, but you're trotting out emotive over done arguments. Lou provides a perspective with his views, and he tends to have at least some ammo before opening fire.

**marty** · 4th May 2005, 08:14

Originally Posted by spudchucka

Thanks a lot by the way, I hope you didn't shake your head too hard and get a neck strain.

maybe it wasn't the head attached to the top of his neck he was shaking....

**Lou Girardin** · 4th May 2005, 08:15

Originally Posted by scumdog

And another generation grows up with less fear of authority.........

It used to be RESPECT for authority. If fear of the Police is needed, then there are several good examples; Argentina, Chile, China, most of the Middle East, etc.
You don't really want that, do you?

**Clockwork** · 4th May 2005, 08:16

I took particular exception to the comment....

"Unfortunately and somewhat stupidly maybe they actually thought that they could help a few people. I've got a degree and all that, i could make twice what i make in the private sector. But why should i expect others to do a job for me i didn't have the balls to do myself?"

...which I took to imply that anyone who isn't a cop is not fit to express a opinion on the matter.

Now I dont feel anything else I said constituted a charater assasination, but since you mention it, I can't recall ever seeing a post from indoo that wasn't sarcastic and/or abusive
eg.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...34&postcount=52

**Lou Girardin** · 4th May 2005, 08:21

Originally Posted by marty

my first brush with the MOT was @ 14 when i was driving my lawn mower powered go cart along the footpath from one side of my parents section to the other (about 10 metres). the cart was immobilised by said MOTer (who lived 10 houses up the road), never to go again. threatened to make my father's life hell too (he ran a garage).

next brush was in my 1951 6 volt anglia, blown headlight, driving in hamilton where i couldn't even tell if they were on, let alone one was blown - $75, no discretion, no diversion.

next was in my gto, painted in primer grey with spider man black dusting on it. no front bumper (was getting painted) but had the plate mounted on the front with lockwire. $75 for no front bumper. no discretion, no diversion.

all as polite as fuck.

wankers.
i think that people now days take efficient and ruthless ticket writing as having a bad attitude, when in reality it's someone doing their job well. maybe they would be happier if the HP cops stayed inside and trawled the net for porn....

It still rankles doesn't it, you were subject to efficient and ruthless ticket writing, the cop was doing his job well. Those tickets were no less deserved than doing 111 km/h on an empty Desert Rd.
But I really think that those cops were offended by your taste in vehicles though.

**marty** · 4th May 2005, 08:27

nothing wrong with a ford pop, with 10hp E93a flat head even!

and the gto WAS one of the original BR cars.....didn't quite have the panache of the 160Jsss or series 1 RX7, or god help us the celeste.....but it was quick and reliable.

**Lou Girardin** · 4th May 2005, 08:33

You don't have to be in an occupation in order to criticise it. Soemtimes the people doing the job can't see the forest for the trees. The Police DO have problems ranging from recruitment standards to resourcing to priorities, and their bosses don't seem to know/care about them.
For those that say "Police are just like everyone else", we were told at MOT training that we were no longer civilians. We had to be better, on and off duty. While there were 800 of us watching the public. There were 3 million of them watching us.
This still applies today.

**spudchucka** · 4th May 2005, 08:45

Originally Posted by marty

maybe it wasn't the head attached to the top of his neck he was shaking....

I did think that for a moment but because I'm supposed to be above those thoughts I quickly discarded any notion of suggesting Drummer is a wanker.

**spudchucka** · 4th May 2005, 08:49

Originally Posted by drummer

Are you saying that opinion should only be expressed by "experts"?

No! I'm saying you should at least attempt to educate yourself on a topic before being excessively outspoken about it. Something that is seriously lacking around this thread.

**drummer** · 4th May 2005, 09:21

Originally Posted by Jim2

I just read, and reread post 1084, and I just can't read into it what you did. Did you remove "the I've been indoctrinated by the media to expect a cynical, laissez faire brute everytime I deal with a police person" filters before you read it?

It's getting a bit out of hand, to perform character assasinations on people you've never met just because of their occupation. The steadfast refusal to separate Government policy from Policing is, well, really, really OLD.

If you guys came up with a new tune, you might find yourself in a meaningful and worthy debate, but you're trotting out emotive over done arguments. Lou provides a perspective with his views, and he tends to have at least some ammo before opening fire.

this absolutely personifies what is wrong here... The police motto is "Building safer communities togeather" Note that word "togeather"... in other words the police state in their motto that they want to work WITH the public... All the police reps here are doing is to argue AGAINST what many are trying to say... that the police force needs a major shakeup... it's an "us vs them" thing... all the police reps here have bleated about the poor "cops on the street"... but NOTHING about the poor public that feels a rapidly increasing disatisfaction with the NZ police force. There have been NO suggestions from any one of our police reps about how WE the public could better work with the Police... all we are told is that we the public don't understand how difficult the job is...

Like it or lump it, the disatisfaction is rising... now you can blame it on the media, lack of public perception... the Government, commissioner, you gand daddy's dog... but... the disatisfaction IS rising... thats a fact!

To cap it all off Spud has now resorted to a thinly deguised pattern of abuse... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...postcount=1094 and he also tells us that WE THE PUBLIC... (quote) "...should at least attempt to educate yourself on a topic before being excessively outspoken about it. Something that is seriously lacking around this thread." http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...postcount=1095 is Spud seriously suggesting that unless we the public are not "educated" on the subject we can't express an opinion? Do you honestly believe that Spud? Lets go further... who detirmines the right "education"? Are you suggesting that the public isn't knowledgeable about what it's like to be let down, abused, accused incorrectly, etc etc? Plus... I would seriously doubt your own education on the subject... all you police reps here... you do NOT know what it's like to be a mere "member of the public" these days. So before any of you start lecturing to the public about needing to become "educated" on a subject before having an opinion, take a long hard look in the mirror... and for once... stop and listen to what we say... because we just may have a point!

**spudchucka** · 4th May 2005, 09:45

Originally Posted by drummer

Nor does the public need to. The police have taken on a job that is known to be difficult. The public will never fully understand... either what it's like or why you choose that job.

You can have an informed opinion or you can have an ignorant opinion, the choice is yours. Putting yourself in the shoes of those you critiscise may help rationalise your arguements. Its only a suggestion, you choose for yourself.

Originally Posted by drummer

Then why does Joe Average need to know what it's like?

The don't need to know but it wouldn't hurt them to have some idea, especially if they are very outspoken about the faults of the organisation and those who work in it.

Originally Posted by drummer

the "power factor"... the one factor the public currently can not control. If a "bad cop" wants to, he or she can make life very hard for someone...

What "power" are you talking about? The power to arrest? The power to search? Be specific for once in this thread. Bad cops shoot themselves in the foot eventually or the system does it for them.

Originally Posted by drummer

Also, the public expect the police to do their job efficiently, honourably and fairly. Unfortunately, the public disatisfation is increasing because the force is becoming inefficient, many officers are dishonourable, and the perception of unfairness is also a factor.

The police have been aware for a long time that public confidence is falling. The last survey I read, (about 2000 - 2001) said that the major source of dissapointment was lack of follow up to complaints, not heavy handed policing of the roads, that caused the bulk of the dissatisfaction.

This to me suggests that the poor resourcing of general policing is a bigger factor than any road policing issues. In fact a 9 day survey of 750 people over the Easter period showed that 47.6% felt that road policing was about right at the moment. A further 22% said that police should be even tougher on the roads than the currently are. Only 27.8% said they thought the polcie were being too strict on the roads. If you had been here for more than five minutes you would have seen previously that I have always advocated increasing general police resources and leaving raod policing at it current level.

Originally Posted by drummer

Already answered.

No you haven't!

Originally Posted by drummer

every cop (bar two that work in schools nearby) I have met since returning to NZ 3 years ago from oZ has appeared to be arrogant, a couple were outright rude.

What did they do that made them appear arrogant?

Originally Posted by drummer

That just does Not stack up... firstly you state that it isn't the roll of the police to decide on guilt or innocence. Maybe so... but there is a little word called discretion... that is used everyday when a police officer may overlook something...

Do you want a police force that is judge, jury and executioner? The farmer committed an offence and in doing so he injured a person and could just as easily have killed that person. The correct course of action is to put him before the Court. There is no exception to this course of action and you will not persuade me otherwise, so quit trying.

Discretion is there to be used where appropriate. It is not appropriate for discretion to be used where somebody has been shot by another person. The suggestion is simply absurd.

Originally Posted by drummer

if the police have a stated role to prosecute offenders (your words... how can they be offenders until proven guilty?)

Oh well, golly, I guess we have to say "alleged" offender then if we are going to nit picky.

Originally Posted by drummer

The police have a duty to keep the peace by upholding the law.

Thats what they did, whats your problem?

Originally Posted by drummer

Their prime role must be to keep the peace... not uphold the law...

But you just said that they keep the peace by upholding the law. Which is it? Uphold the law or keep the peace? Ever give thought to the fact that you can't do one withoput also doing the other?

Originally Posted by drummer

I strongly take issue with you on your comment that the cost to the farmer is irrelevant... ask the farmer if those costs are irrelevant. The farmer has been found to be not guilty... the police LOST...

The matter of costs is a justice matter not a police matter. As part of any decision to charge an "alleged" offender should the police consider whether or not they may have to pay legal costs to the defendant if they are found not guilty? How would this effect what should be an inpartial decision, (whether or not to charge) on the part of the police. Would we then have area commanders shitting bricks over their operating budget dissapearing down the justice system gurgler. Would we then have senior police managers vitoing Court proceedings because of financial constraints? How would that serve justice?

Originally Posted by drummer

You for example say that the laws regarding the farmers case worked well.

Thats your interpretation. What I have sadi is that it was appropriate and correct to charge the farmer. Regarding the outcome of the Court hearing I have said that it is my personal opinion that the outcome was also appropriate. You have said that the law is an ass, I have simply been asking you to clarify which laws exactly are the asses you refer to.

Originally Posted by drummer

You have defended the 111 system...

Have I? Where? The people who work in the Comms centres by and large do an exceptional job. The 111 system itself however is full of flaws.

Originally Posted by drummer

two issues that I find difficult to understand... you say those things are working well while we have a farmer that is almost bankrupt for defending his property from scum and a 111 system that has seen failure after failure.

Whats your point?

Originally Posted by drummer

I take issue with the mention of self and peer review... by limiting reviews in this manner the force becomes insular.

**spudchucka** · 4th May 2005, 09:51

Originally Posted by drummer

To cap it all off Spud has now resorted to a thinly deguised pattern of abuse... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...postcount=1094

Have you lost your sense of humour somewhere in this "debate".

Originally Posted by drummer

and he also tells us that WE THE PUBLIC... (quote) "...should at least attempt to educate yourself on a topic before being excessively outspoken about it. Something that is seriously lacking around this thread." http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...postcount=1095 is Spud seriously suggesting that unless we the public are not "educated" on the subject we can't express an opinion?

Go ahead and express whatever opinion you want to. Informed opinions will be treated with the respect accorded to them. Ignorant opinions will not.