NZ Police public image

[scumdog]

Now this is where I believe the NZ police is not serving the public well. Internal audits have historically (look at Aussie for examples) been ineffective. There needs to be an independent body looking continuously at the performance of the Police department.

And of course ALL tax-payer would be pleased to pay the extra for that independent body - especially when they would notice such a BIG improvement in the 'service'.

- I don't think so Tim.

[idb]

Oh, the Gubbermint can do whatever they choose. As indeed they have done in this case. However there is a long tradition in English justice , going back at least to the Great Charter, and beyond , that the law should not be arbitrary,and that wrong should never lack a remedy.

This law ignores that tradition, and has the potential for injustice. And a licence to do something can be as valuable a property in law as a physical thing .

True, however operating under a licence means that you accept that you are bound by the terms and rules put in place by the licencer, whether you think they are fair or not.
Now the fact that so many of the "offences" (quotation marks appropriate due to this discussion) have set penalties would suggest to me that they are somehow different to common law offences so that the tradition of gummint applied justice does not necessarily apply.

I don't understand how the laws are arbitrary. The conditions under how they should be applied are written down and they have appointed agents to apply them.
Everyone is treated the same way (despite the dispute about that in this thread).

Incidentally, I would dispute the theory currently in vogue that access to the Quen's Highway is a privilege not a right. There has been a right of free access (free as in free speech, not free beer) since at least Norman times - as long in fact as there has been a Queen's (or King's ) Highway. Gubbermints have only the power to administer and regulate that access for the common good. The Queen's highway is NOT private property (nor does it belong to the Gubbermint) , it is vested in the Crown, and there are Common Law rights to use it.

I've never heard the argument that access to the roads is a privilege, in fact it isn't that that is regulated. It is how you act on those roads that is subject to regulation.

[scumdog]

.. are you likely to act different if you have just had a hard time with the missus?

NO-WE-ARE-ALL-ROBOTS. WE-ARE-NOT-ALLOWED-TO-HAVE-EMOTIONS-OR-HAVE OUR-JUDGEMENT-CLOUDED-IN-ANY-WAY.
WE-MAKE-DECISIONS-FROM-PURE-LOGIC.


Just like all the public do.

[idb]

I've never heard the argument that access to the roads is a privilege, in fact it isn't that that is regulated. It is how you act on those roads that is subject to regulation.

I shouldn't have used the word fact because in fact I could be talking out of my arse, in fact.

[idb]

NO-WE-ARE-ALL-ROBOTS. WE-ARE-NOT-ALLOWED-TO-HAVE-EMOTIONS-OR-HAVE OUR-JUDGEMENT-CLOUDED-IN-ANY-WAY.
WE-MAKE-DECISIONS-FROM-PURE-LOGIC.


Just like all the public do.

Hey!! I'm public and I think you're taking the piss.
What's the number of that independent body to sort you out!!

[drummer]

"Mr" drummer doesn't strike me as someone arguing for a fairer or more just society. He's just pissed off because he's been busted for breaking what he believes to be an arbitrary law, by an organisation that appears to have arbitraty powers. The only statement he could produce that is more laughable than the ones he has made so far in this thread would be for him to profess that he doesn't bother voting because there's no point.

I know the difference between visionaries, revolutionaries, and whingers very well, thanks very much.

Actually you have got it so wrong it's a laugh! I have never been "busted" as you put it... and since returning to NZ 3 years ago have never been booked or even warned for any offence on the road or otherwise. My concern is seeing the decreased level of trust that people have in the police.

And voting is an interesting topic.. yes I vote and am an active member in a political party. You see, I do aim to make a difference... and will NOT sit compacently when I see perceived problems.

Oh... and I admit to having poor spelling.

[drummer]

NO-WE-ARE-ALL-ROBOTS. WE-ARE-NOT-ALLOWED-TO-HAVE-EMOTIONS-OR-HAVE OUR-JUDGEMENT-CLOUDED-IN-ANY-WAY.
WE-MAKE-DECISIONS-FROM-PURE-LOGIC.


Just like all the public do.

Thought so...

[James Deuce]

[QUOTE=Ixion]

Fairness should never be the ultimate outcome of any question of societal balance.
../QUOTE]

I don't know a better one, meself

If you aim for fairness someone will always be aggrieved enough by the unfairness of the fairness that you will achieve nothing. That is precisely why we don't run a "democracy" by democratic principles. Socrates himself acknowledged that Democrates concepts were well and good, but the biggest practical consensus vote was 2500-3000 people. More than that and you'll never get all the individuals and interest groups heard in a public meeting prior to a vote.

Life isn't fair, and it never will be. The sooner people adjust to that, the less aggravating life will be.

[James Deuce]

Actually you have got it so wrong it's a laugh! I have never been "busted" as you put it... and since returning to NZ 3 years ago have never been booked or even warned for any offence on the road or otherwise. My concern is seeing the decreased level of trust that people have in the police.

And voting is an interesting topic.. yes I vote and am an active member in a political party. You see, I do aim to make a difference... and will NOT sit compacently when I see perceived problems.

Oh... and I admit to having poor spelling.

So you might want to think about establishing a terms of reference for you discussion, rather than single mindedly insulting people then? Or is that not a priority for a self confessed political activist?

Or do you just want to bag the Police because they're an easy target, just like every other glory hunter with the "right" to a public opinion?

[marty]

I have said before on this thread that an independant body should review the whole department and I believe it would also filter down to individual reviews and audits. Much along the lines of the Education Review Office does in auditing schools.

so you would like an organisation mirrored on ERO's structure to audit the police?

[drummer]

So you might want to think about establishing a terms of reference for you discussion, rather than single mindedly insulting people then? Or is that not a priority for a self confessed political activist?

Or do you just want to bag the Police because they're an easy target, just like every other glory hunter with the "right" to a public opinion?

You are kidding aren't you... You say I need to establish a point of reference. It is extremely clear you are inept at reading. And as far as insulting people goes... well consider this post an insult if you must!

[drummer]

so you would like an organisation mirrored on ERO's structure to audit the police?

Mirrored... no... but based on the same auditing powers yes.

[drummer]

Or do you just want to bag the Police because they're an easy target, just like every other glory hunter with the "right" to a public opinion?

I'll add to my previous answer... partly because you have pushed my button. You are by the way you talk, telling me that I am bagging the police... you also are I take it suggesting that I don't really have that right. On both accounts you prove yourself to be one of those who want to gag the public. Your world it seems would have no criticism of authority... because athority is always right. Your see through your rose tinted glasses a police force that is above criticism, above question and above reproach. You see a NZ police force that is efficient and trustworthy... but if you even cared to face the facts that you obviously don't give a sh*t about, you would see a rapidly increasing percentage of the public who are losing faith in the police. That, my dear boy is a concern to me and if you opened your tightly closed eyes and ears would be clear to you as well.

That aint "bagging" the police mate... thats just telling it like it is and being concerned enough to comment.

[marty]

considering ERO is made up of education professionals who have ALL come through the school process, who do you propose fulfils this role for the police? joe schmoe can't do it, as a deep and critical understanding of the processes within an organisation are needed in order to thoroughly appraise a person within that system. however, ERO don't appraise people, they appraise systems. i have been through both, and the ERO does not have anywhere near as wideranging powers of access and critisism that the IPCA has.

but you knew that.

[drummer]

considering ERO is made up of education professionals who have ALL come through the school process, who do you propose fulfils this role for the police? joe schmoe can't do it, as a deep and critical understanding of the processes within an organisation are needed in order to thoroughly appraise a person within that system. however, ERO don't appraise people, they appraise systems. i have been through both, and the ERO does not have anywhere near as wideranging powers of access and critisism that the IPCA has.

but you knew that.

yes... I do a lot of work with music in schools and however ERO operates and whatever flaws they have, it provides a good review system. The police have NO independent audit system, hence my call for one. Incidently you keep harping onto individual appraisels, but I have consistantly called for a departmental audit.