Öhlins electronic suspension comes to WSBK Yamahas

[Robert Taylor]

*edit*
never mind, Robert already answered my questions just as I wrote it...

Johan, see post above. Replying to your message later.

[limbimtimwim]

You obviously make assumption that this technology will be expensive. Frankly no-one yet knows that and it could well be only incrementally more expensive if it makes it to full scale consumer market production, depending on economy of scale.

I suspect a mid-range car navigation system has most of the bits required for this. Ie. acceleration meters and gyroscopes. They are not outlandishly expensive. Mass produced in an japanese (Or Italian..) superbike the cost of these parts would not be be out of proportion.

Fuel injection, ABS (And say power steering in cars) were expensive once, all those sensors, pumps are such like.

[sAsLEX]

I suspect a mid-range car navigation system has most of the bits required for this. Ie. acceleration meters and gyroscopes. They are not outlandishly expensive. Mass produced in an japanese (Or Italian..) superbike the cost of these parts would not be be out of proportion.

Fuel injection, ABS (And say power steering in cars) were expensive once, all those sensors, pumps are such like.

As an engineer who has had a look at the data sets that car navigation systems use they will not be of high enough definition for it to work accurately.

Plus they don't have elevation, surface et al information

[GSVR]

Yes, and the rulemakers in WSBK are somewhat shortsiightedly trying to ban it, thereby halting the march of progress. Ohlins engineers are currently in protracted discussions with them and are somewhat gobsmacked by the mentality of it all.

Or possibly the Ohlins engineers are so full of their own self interests they can't see the big picture.

And what decade was active suspension banned in F1?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mot...rmula-One.html

What a contemptible narrow minded post ( frankly ) When Ive had some r and r Ill come back with some realities contrary to your politics of envy.

Please don't save your energy for something more important. I'm not worthy.

Bollocks, if you came and saw me at a meeting asking for help youd be worthy of same. I jus dont agree with an ''us and them'' mentality that so many of our countrymen subscribe to.

You could of just said No. I just assumed the the side of "them" the shortsighted WSB guys. Im sure whatever their motives are money will play a huge part.

BTW The suspension must be good if they want to ban it. If it was crap no one would care and the other teams would encourage its use!

[Robert Taylor]

You could of just said No. I just assumed the the side of "them" the shortsighted WSB guys. Im sure whatever their motives are money will play a huge part.

BTW The suspension must be good if they want to ban it. If it was crap no one would care and the other teams would encourage its use!

Well then, a command of the facts arms one better than making dangerous assumptions, which in turn can often lead to embarrassment. And btw I know only too damn well that the total motivation of the engineers is to get those bikes around the tracks even faster. If the marketing people see commercial potential then yes they will mass produce it. Thats where the TTX36 came from. ETC... and all those nasty profits they make ( indeed way way way way less nasty than oil company profits ) are the engine that drives further r & d.
I think there are a lot easier ways to make money than manufacturing suspension units and getting the market to accept them ( which is not always a given, by any means ) If I had my time again I would choose the path I almost chose, going to law school. Id actually be wealthy rather than being a joe bloggs who otherwise enjoys the constant challenge of what one is doing. Most engineers dont choose such a career path to become wealthy, that is no less true of Ohlins engineers. As in many big companies they almost have a contempt for the sales and marketing guys but are also realistic enough to know that they have to co-exist and co-depend upon one another to generate enough product to survive and be strong in a very fickle industry and also generate enough to fuel further r & d.............that incidentally companies like Ohlins are very engaged in. Nothing at all sinister in that.

[Shaun]

#65 Today, 22:47
Robert Taylor
Forum whore
♂
Bike: None
Location: New Plymouth
Posts: 1,105


Well then, a command of the facts arms one better than making dangerous assumptions, which in turn can often lead to embarrassment. And btw I know only too damn well that the total motivation of the engineers is to get those bikes around the tracks even faster. If the marketing people see commercial potential then yes they will mass produce it.


Agree, the Fitters and development engineers are very focused!

The marketng dept is Crap, as per all marketing dept's. They did not even bother to reply to my EMAIL RE Shit happens? I guess like you? they Knew I was full of Hospital product, not to mention the head BANG!

Thanks for all your email replies about it though, and I thought it was brilliant of you to Personally promise to check all FITMENT of that product and correct PRODUCT fitment, if You had to anything to do with that product.

[Robert Taylor]

#65 Today, 22:47
Robert Taylor
Forum whore
♂
Bike: None
Location: New Plymouth
Posts: 1,105


Well then, a command of the facts arms one better than making dangerous assumptions, which in turn can often lead to embarrassment. And btw I know only too damn well that the total motivation of the engineers is to get those bikes around the tracks even faster. If the marketing people see commercial potential then yes they will mass produce it.


Agree, the Fitters and development engineers are very focused!

The marketng dept is Crap, as per all marketing dept's. They did not even bother to reply to my EMAIL RE Shit happens? I guess like you? they Knew I was full of Hospital product, not to mention the head BANG!

Thanks for all your email replies about it though, and I thought it was brilliant of you to Personally promise to check all FITMENT of that product and correct PRODUCT fitment, if You had to anything to do with that product.

Actually as you very well recall I fairly and proffessionally investigated a problem that you had and concluded that the damper you were supplied was not correct for the bike as the mounting bracket was not correct for the GSXR, even though I did not supply the kit. As very clearly shown to you in my workshop at a time you were being courteous. It was supplied on the other side of the world and you cannot prove or disprove the quality of fitment, therefore you dont know who to authorise legal proceedings against.

I also contacted Ohlins, being in full command of the facts as I analysed them, even though this problem occurred on another distributors patch. Incorrect bracket, not specific to the clearances and damping arc movement required dictated by the oem GSXR mounting. Recipe for disaster given another parties negligence / ignorance. Prove otherwise?

Given that I have been on the recieving end of very very nasty threatening telephone calls I have no interest in drawing any further conclusions.

[Shaun]

"I said" ----- Thanks for all your email replies about it though, and I thought it was brilliant of you to Personally promise to check all FITMENT of that product and correct PRODUCT fitment, if You had to anything to do with that product.
__________________
shaun@motodynamix.co.nz



"you said"

Actually as you very well recall I fairly and proffessionally investigated a problem that you had and concluded that the damper you were supplied was not correct for the bike as the mounting bracket was not correct for the GSXR, even though I did not supply the kit. As very clearly shown to you in my workshop at a time you were being courteous. It was supplied on the other side of the world and you cannot prove or disprove the quality of fitment, therefore you dont know who to authorise legal proceedings against.

I also contacted Ohlins, being in full command of the facts as I analysed them, even though this problem occurred on another distributors patch. Incorrect bracket, not specific to the clearances and damping arc movement required dictated by the oem GSXR mounting. Recipe for disaster given another parties negligence / ignorance. Prove otherwise?

Given that I have been on the recieving end of very very nasty threatening telephone calls I have no interest in drawing any further conclusions.

Well said that man! Conclusions can be very dangerous

[slowpoke]

Or possibly the Ohlins engineers are so full of their own self interests they can't see the big picture.

And what decade was active suspension banned in F1?

I don't quite get the points you are trying to make:

I would expect any business individual to have their and their shareholders ineterests at heart, that's the nature of running a business. You and I do exactly the same on a smaller scale when we check our pay packets each fortnight. Until the effect of this sort of technology is actually seen who knows how it fits into the "big picture"?

For that matter what is "the big picture"? Having better road bikes available to you and I? A cheap WSBK series? The fastest/best possible machines on the track? You can't have it all.

Technology has moved on from the times of F1 active suspension, to the point where the systems used then are irrelevant now. Traction control was a mend-bendingly expensive and specilised black art just a few years ago and now we can buy the bits and fit it to our CBR250 for a comparative pittance. So it will be with Arcy Sparky Suspenders.

I'm worried about costs blowing out and reducing the quality of the competition but until it actually starts to happen then I'm happy to reserve judgement.

Someone told me once that technology on bikes was about 20 years behind cars. I reacon thats bull. Its only around 15.

WTF? I can't name a reasonably affordable car with a titanium exhaust, titanium valves, anti-friction coated suspension components, electro-plated cylinder bores rather than heavy liners, multi adjustable suspension with two speed compression damping, sequential cassette style gearbox, fly by wire throttle, anti-compression lock-up slipper clutch, variable length induction venturies, carbon composite bodywork, forged magnesium wheels, titanium rods, magnesium engine cases etc etc. Yes you can tick a couple of boxes on the odd vehicle but we can go down to the local bike shop and for not a lot of dosh we can buy a bike that has most of not all of these boxes ticked. In an age where cars are getting heavier and heavier our bikes are maintaining their kight weight if not getting lighter despite weight inducing emissions legislation. Check the weight gain of a Commodore or BMW M3 or Mitsubishi Evo over the years and compare the weight gain of a CBR900-1000RR or Ducati 916-1098, and the car makers don't look too smart.

[NZsarge]

Check the weight gain of a Commodore or BMW M3 or Mitsubishi Evo over the years and compare the weight gain of a CBR900-1000RR or Ducati 916-1098, and the car makers don't look too smart.

Given models of cars are getting heavier because they are:
A. Getting bigger with each successive model.
B. Having to build more and more safety (both passive and active) features into their cares to remain both competitive in the market place as safety is one of (if not the) the most important criteria for customers and ofcourse required safety standards are become continually more stringent.

Crash standard are'nt applicable to bikes so they don't have build bikes with more more detailed crash zones etc etc in other words their R&D costs and manufacturing costs can more easily be directed into things like exotic materials and so on....

[GSVR]

WTF? I can't name a reasonably affordable car with a titanium exhaust, titanium valves, anti-friction coated suspension components, electro-plated cylinder bores rather than heavy liners, multi adjustable suspension with two speed compression damping, sequential cassette style gearbox, fly by wire throttle, anti-compression lock-up slipper clutch, variable length induction venturies, carbon composite bodywork, forged magnesium wheels, titanium rods, magnesium engine cases etc etc. Yes you can tick a couple of boxes on the odd vehicle but we can go down to the local bike shop and for not a lot of dosh we can buy a bike that has most of not all of these boxes ticked. In an age where cars are getting heavier and heavier our bikes are maintaining their kight weight if not getting lighter despite weight inducing emissions legislation. Check the weight gain of a Commodore or BMW M3 or Mitsubishi Evo over the years and compare the weight gain of a CBR900-1000RR or Ducati 916-1098, and the car makers don't look too smart.

Yeah. And they still come out with substandard suspension despite years of development. Thats really smart. Or is this just a marketing strategy by Ohlins to promote their products?

Hell the new sport bikes even come out with electronic steering dampers. Whats the first thing a racer does when he gets one of these bikes? And why?

If your going to compare bikes to cars at least compare apples with apples. Superbike vs Supercar. Not Suberbike vs Family Sedan.

[Robert Taylor]

"I said" ----- Thanks for all your email replies about it though, and I thought it was brilliant of you to Personally promise to check all FITMENT of that product and correct PRODUCT fitment, if You had to anything to do with that product.
__________________
shaun@motodynamix.co.nz



"you said"





Well said that man! Conclusions can be very dangerous

No need for any further diatribe then, as there was none before.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah. And they still come out with substandard suspension despite years of development. Thats really smart. Or is this just a marketing strategy by Ohlins to promote their products?

Hell the new sports bike even come out with electronic steering dampers. Whats the first thing a racers does when he gets one of these bikes? And why?

Because you the consumer demand the lowest possible price and that is one of several areas they cut costs. Aside also from the fact people are of all shapes, sizes and weights and customisation is therefore required.
Yamaha Motor Co own a 5% stake in Ohlins but their motox bikes come out standard with either KYB or Showa suspension. 2 reasons why, Ohlins have nothing like the production capacity of those two Japanese shock companies ( nor wish to ) and therefore dont have the economy of scale. Because of that first reason they need to keep their bikes competitively priced against their main ( Japanese ) competitors. SIMPLE ECONOMICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
And why single Ohlins out? There are other great companies that exist such as WP and Penske because they make high end great performing dampers.
Just stating the obvious. But choose as you wish to consider its all a conspiracy, most people that have responded get it...........

[GSVR]

Because you the consumer demand the lowest possible price and that is one of several areas they cut costs. Aside also from the fact people are of all shapes, sizes and weights and customisation is therefore required.
Yamaha Motor Co own a 5% stake in Ohlins but their motox bikes come out standard with either KYB or Showa suspension. 2 reasons why, Ohlins have nothing like the production capacity of those two Japanese shock companies ( nor wish to ) and therefore dont have the economy of scale. Because of that first reason they need to keep their bikes competitively priced against their main ( Japanese ) competitors. SIMPLE ECONOMICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
And why single Ohlins out? There are other great companies that exist such as WP and Penske because they make high end great performing dampers.
Just stating the obvious. But choose as you wish to consider its all a conspiracy, most people that have responded get it...........

No not singling Ohlins out at all but they are a good example as they make a great product.

Slowpoke was mentioning all the exotic stuff on a modern sportsbike. Hell Titainium is expensive. That really smacks of cost cutting!

And where in the owners manual does the bike maker advise me that my suspension might not suit my weight and could be a safety issue? They tell you to wear a helmet!

[slowpoke]

Yeah. And they still come out with substandard suspension despite years of development. Thats really smart. Or is this just a marketing strategy by Ohlins to promote their products?

Hell the new sport bikes even come out with electronic steering dampers. Whats the first thing a racer does when he gets one of these bikes? And why?

If your going to compare bikes to cars at least compare apples with apples. Superbike vs Supercar. Not Suberbike vs Family Sedan.

Seriously mate, I think you are loving the reactions you are getting, but maybe it would be better if you went away and had a bit of a think about the comparisons you are making.

How is a preload, rebound and 2 speed compression adjustable shock available on a run of the mill generic Japanese sportsbike substandard? Sure it's not the best you can buy but it probably compares favourably with GP suspension of just a few years ago.

Not all racers ditch the electronic steering damper, but most racers prefer some adjustablity rather than generic settings developed for a road bike.

Superbike versus Supercar? Get real, a generic Jappa sportsbike is at the opposite end of the price/prestige spectrum than the BMW M3 previously mentioned. It and the Evo are acknowledged as some of the finest real world sports cars you can buy, and far from your average family sedan.