November 8th - Now you know when not to vote Labour.

[oldrider]

I read ACT and Libertarian policy.
Being a fairly new import to NZ, why does Lib not feature?
What is the downside on voting ACT?

Not "everybody" in NZ is stupid, just the majority "socialist population".

The only downside in voting ACT or Libertarianz is, it just puts you in the polical minority in NZ.

Criminals and lawyers won't leave this country.

Crime is a growth industry, lawyers feed off it, taxpayers finance it and thousands of bureaucrats service it.

If that's not bad enough, take a look at the justice system, education, health.......etc, etc etc.

Never mind, Helen said today that you can trust her and her cronies to continue the good work.

She also said to watch out for that untrustworthy flip flop artist John Key and the National party!......Thank you for your wise council Helen. John.

[Winston001]

Ditto.



Any idea why this Big Bad Business view or do we just have too many brainless people left in Kiwiland?

Plenty of decent people here, the problem is that we have become completely captured by the Welfare State. Originally it was a social democracy concept to protect the weak, the poor, and the indigent. It ballooned when under National in 1972 the Domestic Purposes Benefit was introduced.

Hard to argue against, but what was originally thought of as temporary, became a right, and a way of life. Today we have two generations of Kiwis who can't see the point of working hard or striking out to try for themselves.

OK, gross generalisations and the UK - indeed much of Europe, have had the same policies. But they seem to rise beyond it. Look at Britain - clothcap politics is strong but nevertheless following Thatchers policies, the POMs have thrived.

Maybe we are just too small-minded. My two cents.

[James Deuce]

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OK, gross generalisations and the UK - indeed much of Europe, have had the same policies. But they seem to rise beyond it. Look at Britain - clothcap politics is strong but nevertheless following Thatchers policies, the POMs have thrived.

Maybe we are just too small-minded. My two cents.

Eh what?

"Unwed mothers" farm the UK's social welfare system to much greater effect than Kiwi women with that particular bent and start a great deal earlier. Vast hordes of homeless people roam about and huge suburbs with the population of Christchurch are ghettos in a number of cities over there I've spent time in. Just like NZ, bits of the UK thrive and bits wallow in everything that is wrong with urban and suburban culture and tradition. It's just more densely packed and way more parochial, even small-minded, than anywhere in NZ except West Auckland.

There's no way I'd be holding the UK up as an example to strive toward.

[Niterider]

Plenty of decent people here, the problem is that we have become completely captured by the Welfare State. Originally it was a social democracy concept to protect the weak, the poor, and the indigent. It ballooned when under National in 1972 the Domestic Purposes Benefit was introduced.

Hard to argue against, but what was originally thought of as temporary, became a right, and a way of life. Today we have two generations of Kiwis who can't see the point of working hard or striking out to try for themselves.

OK, gross generalisations and the UK - indeed much of Europe, have had the same policies. But they seem to rise beyond it. Look at Britain - clothcap politics is strong but nevertheless following Thatchers policies, the POMs have thrived.

Maybe we are just too small-minded. My two cents.

I get the idea that the beehive is leaning so far over to the left that 2 terms of libertarian- or at least ACT rule, will just get the hive to stand up straight again. It will definately get rid of most of the common crime like theft, murder (including boy racers using cars as weapons), rape etc. or am I missing something?

[Winston001]

Eh what?

"Unwed mothers" farm the UK's social welfare system to much greater effect than Kiwi women with that particular bent and start a great deal earlier. Vast hordes of homeless people roam about and huge suburbs with the population of Christchurch are ghettos in a number of cities over there I've spent time in. Just like NZ, bits of the UK thrive and bits wallow in everything that is wrong with urban and suburban culture and tradition. It's just more densely packed and way more parochial, even small-minded, than anywhere in NZ except West Auckland.

There's no way I'd be holding the UK up as an example to strive toward.

Ok but disagree. Remember, the UK has 60 million people crammed into a country the same size as NZ. So they have 15X the population. Multiply South Auckland 15X, dot them around, and you'd have plenty of visible social problems here too.

Have a look at this: http://dataranking.com/table.cgi?LG=...e03-2&RG=1&FL= It shows comparable purchasing power in the OECD countries. In other words, you can buy more with your wages. The UK is at 10 and rising over ten years. NZ by comparison is at 21 and hasn't moved in the same period.

The UK generally sits around 12 on most of the OECD figures and NZ around 23.

[Niterider]

The only downside in voting ACT or Libertarianz is, it just puts you in the polical minority in NZ.

Looking at the snap election poll : http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=80661 which might be a reasonable representation of the real thing?? Act is ahead of helen!! I think ACT has a good chance. Reason being many callers on Newstalkzb today moved from Labour to ACT and sounds like the Maori party is very popular even amongst the non-Maoris. They seem to like their leader's straightness, mannerism and honesty.

[aerobubb1]

I heard somewhere the comment COMMUNISM IN DISGUISE which I feel pretty much sums it up,

lets have a vote and go with minority!

[RiderInBlack]

well.....i work hard for my money, self employed etc, in theory i will be better off with the nats in.

but i have a brain so labour gets my vote.

Having been self employed i don't think I would be better off with Nat. Not interested in the Country borrowing more just ta give tax cuts when we are heading for a recession. The only reason I would vote for Nat this time would be ta get one party in that doesn't need to deal with other parties ta have the majority in Parliament by voting with the "Sheep". As far as I am concerned Labour has done OK and would be happy ta have them in again. With a bit of luck Winnie First won't make the cut, so Helen won't have ta sell what sole she has left ta get in.
All Leaders are Lizards, but I have ta vote for a Lizard or the wrong Lizard gets in. So unless Nat shapes up, I voying Labour.

[Swoop]

Are you talking of 3 x local and 3 x Parliament votes?

Quite possibly...

[James Deuce]

Ok but disagree. Remember, the UK has 60 million people crammed into a country the same size as NZ. So they have 15X the population. Multiply South Auckland 15X, dot them around, and you'd have plenty of visible social problems here too.

Have a look at this: http://dataranking.com/table.cgi?LG=...e03-2&RG=1&FL= It shows comparable purchasing power in the OECD countries. In other words, you can buy more with your wages. The UK is at 10 and rising over ten years. NZ by comparison is at 21 and hasn't moved in the same period.

The UK generally sits around 12 on most of the OECD figures and NZ around 23.

You're talking about a different issue there.

New Zealand had an artificially high ranking on that table because we borrowed money at a rate comparable to the US over the last 5 years, for two decades. We're never going to get higher on that table. Quantity has a quality all its own. I wouldn't expect the UK to stay up there either.

However you were trying to state that the UK doesn't have the social welfare generated issues NZ does. It most certainly does and there is a lot more scope to make a lot more money out of the tax payer if you pop babies out. The basic standard of living in the UK is quite unpleasant unless you like rooting and drinking as a way of life and the housing drives me insane.

[Winston001]

However you were trying to state that the UK doesn't have the social welfare generated issues NZ does. It most certainly does and there is a lot more scope to make a lot more money out of the tax payer if you pop babies out. The basic standard of living in the UK is quite unpleasant unless you like rooting and drinking as a way of life and the housing drives me insane.

No argument with that. What I was saying is that despite a strong working-class left-wing ethic, the UK has successfully grown its economy. The purchasing power stats show that.

For some reason in NZ we still cling to the belief that profit is bad, employers are bad, personal wealth is bad. This instills a sense of envy, unfairness, jealousy, amongst the population to the extent that to aspire above average is crushed.

A business friend for many many years would not buy himself a 2nd hand Mercedes because he (rightly) feared that people would no longer support him - for doing too well.

In America - and I don't actually admire this, he'd buy a Merc in the hope that it would attract business. It seems kind of shallow, but more impoertantly, personal success is admired and celebrated. Even the Aussies do that.

[Robert Taylor]

No argument with that. What I was saying is that despite a strong working-class left-wing ethic, the UK has successfully grown its economy. The purchasing power stats show that.

For some reason in NZ we still cling to the belief that profit is bad, employers are bad, personal wealth is bad. This instills a sense of envy, unfairness, jealousy, amongst the population to the extent that to aspire above average is crushed.

A business friend for many many years would not buy himself a 2nd hand Mercedes because he (rightly) feared that people would no longer support him - for doing too well.

In America - and I don't actually admire this, he'd buy a Merc in the hope that it would attract business. It seems kind of shallow, but more impoertantly, personal success is admired and celebrated. Even the Aussies do that.

You have summed it up perfectly. And pointedly, a vote for Labour is a vote for the most corrupt and self serving Government in our history.

[portokiwi]

I just dont know who to vote for???

[Motig]

Well if anyone thinks voting for National is suddenly going to make employers generous enough to make our wages equivalent to Aussie, the're in for a rude shock if they get in. And tax cuts, dont make me laugh $10 to $16 a week if your lucky. Unfortunately theres 9 years people who have only known Labour as the Govt and have no idea how National stuffed the average worker/ pensioner when they were in. I also find it interesting that employers say wages cant go up until productivity does. Amazing how these same workers that ar'nt working hard enough here are so valued overseas. But anyway Vote Winston - just to piss National and their tame pitbull Rodney off

[Swoop]

greens = more ridiculous taxes (carbon emissions, fart, "whatever") which will push inflation up dramatically.
labour = wasting 9 productive economic years when NZ could have done so much more... yet chose to bloat the bureaucratic gravy train with public servants who fail to serve the public. The result is that you fill in more paperwork, then wait substantially longer for your application.
Evidence? 1: The "health" system. 2: Local gubbinment. 3: Resource "management"...