Cornering - To brake or not to brake

[slofox]

6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

Agree 100% with this - have saved my arse several times using this technique...but better not to have to lose the speed in the first place....

[svr]

I don't see what your problem is.

You can't really get a much better bike to ride on the road than the SV.

Sorry... My problem (among several...) is people punching holes in the scenery because they misuse the front brake, which is a bit of a waste.
I know braking in corners is a normal part of riding, I was more talking down the use of trail braking as a sport riding technique, which I would strongly discourage for the reasons above. I'd always wondered why this track technique felt so out of place on the road - this thread was just a chance to think about it and write it down.

I agree about the SV - it may be labelled `a girls bike' but suzuki hit on something there (just costs 5 k to finish what they started...)

[CookMySock]

I agree about the SV - it may be labelled `a girls bike' but suzuki hit on something there (just costs 5 k to finish what they started...)

and so it is for the cheaper bikes, not just the SV.

Steve

[rocketman1]

Being a V twin there should be a bit more engine braking than a inline 4.
So that may give you advantage in slowing for a corner.
If you are into the corner and going to fast, (it then depends) on how fast your are going relative to the corner.
My advice is what I have been told, for track racing: is to apply a little bit of rear brake as you enter the corner, hold it on until the apex of the corner and release rear brake as you gun it out. (If you ride a GSXR1000 I believe you can hold a bit of rear brake to control wheelspin when you accelerate..oh to be so lucky)
anyway while doing this, weight your inside footpeg, drop your inside elbow at the same time, ie countersteer, look where you want to go, and aim for it. DONT look at the traffic coming the other way as the bike will mostly go where you are looking.
another thing is keep your head level, with the ground, you cannot corner with a tilt on your head. You have to some connection to reality
Can you send me a cheque for $100 , cos that what it cost me to learn that. Cheers

[CookMySock]

Being a V twin there should be a bit more engine braking than a inline 4. So that may give you advantage in slowing for a corner.

Yes you are right - BEFORE the corner that is. Throttling off MID corner on my heavy vtwin pushes a LOT or weight onto the front wheel. It emphatically does not like it one bit, and the nose dips and dives badly provoking even more rider panic. Sliding my butt back, cracking the throttle on from overrun into coast relieves the pressure and instantly stabilises the bike. If I enter a corner overcooked, the bike is far more settled if I leave the throttle slightly on, drop my torso to the inside of the corner, and bar push firmly. Scary, but so far, dramatically successful, and it's pushing my cornering ability up slowly notch by notch.

Steve

[svr]

Yes you are right - BEFORE the corner that is. Throttling off MID corner on my heavy vtwin pushes a LOT or weight onto the front wheel. It emphatically does not like it one bit, and the nose dips and dives badly provoking even more rider panic. Sliding my butt back, cracking the throttle on from overrun into coast relieves the pressure and instantly stabilises the bike. If I enter a corner overcooked, the bike is far more settled if I leave the throttle slightly on, drop my torso to the inside of the corner, and bar push firmly. Scary, but so far, dramatically successful, and it's pushing my cornering ability up slowly notch by notch.

Steve

True - I turn the idle up when I race my sv (best to fit slipper clutch...)
Also good to leave the gas on (i.e. neutral) when the corner tightens - use the rear brake. This is more natural on left handers. This works on exits too - hitting the rear brake is almost always better than chopping the gas.

[wysper]

Thanks everyone for your posts in this thread.
It has been good to know that I am sort of on the right track.

Now just to try some of the things suggested.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I have been reading the threads on things like trail braking and it has made me think about cornering technique on the road - not the track.

I am a very conservative rider and therefore tend to err on the side of caution on such things as speed, lean angle etc.

So when picking a cornering speed and line my aim is to pick a line that I can go through without having to adjust my line (assuming no hazzards appear and I have read the corner correctly) and without breaking. Just leaving the fun part of accelerating out of the corner. I figure I have misread a corner if I have to change my line or speed in it. (possibly also just my lack of skill )

Is it ok to be going in "hot" and staying on the breaks right up to the apex?
Or is that just another method of getting though the corner faster?

I am wondering that if I get my initial technique right then the confidence to go a bit faster and harder will come. Trust in my own skills and in the capabilities of the bike.

I would rather look to create a good habit and work from there rather than just go hard and hope to survive.

Thoughts?

YOu are describing trail braking up to the apex then accelerating out?. Its good fun to do but if you want to practice, try it on a trackday because its one extra thing you will be thinking about if trying to do it on the road.

remember that your front tyre has only 100 traction points available at any given time and you are asking it to do two things at once going in hot. The first is brake and the second is steer. Fine so long as those two inputs dont exceed your 100 available points. Remember too that your lean angle will increase as well as you approach the apex (which means you need more traction points and less braking points which you have to modulate in real time while approaching a corner "hot").

I tend to think that if you are riding hard enough to need to trail brake up to the apex, you're riding a bit hard for the road. I try and be a "slow in fast out" rider with braking done upright before corner entry, nice easy transition off the brakes, peel er in nice constant frottle, then stand er up and gas it. This means I am slower than a wet week on "Wet Island" the well known holiday spot for people who like rain.

[HenryDorsetCase]

6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

You know, I have never ever tried that. Going to give it a whirl this weekend, see what happens. I very rarely use the rear brake ever, even on track.

Fasninating. I know just the corner to practice it on too.

Cheers!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Sorry... My problem (among several...) is people punching holes in the scenery because they misuse the front brake, which is a bit of a waste.
I know braking in corners is a normal part of riding, I was more talking down the use of trail braking as a sport riding technique, which I would strongly discourage for the reasons above. I'd always wondered why this track technique felt so out of place on the road - this thread was just a chance to think about it and write it down.

I agree about the SV - it may be labelled `a girls bike' but suzuki hit on something there (just costs 5 k to finish what they started...)

why i sold mine. then promptly spent the extra five k upgrading and another two upgrading what I upgraded to!

[CookMySock]

I cannot get my head past "braking with the rear at large-lean will low-side me". Perhaps if I am seated well-back. Biking is such a head thing..

Steve

[pritch]

Some good thoughts here.

For those new to using the back brake in a corner it can be worth adjusting the back brake so it won't quite lock the wheel before you head out to practice.

Books I have counsel practicing using the brakes from whatever speed you ride at. (But not when there's a truck up your arse of course...) Makes sense.

I seem to recall that some also suggest that since you may one day wish to use the front brakes in a corner that it it is appropriate to practice doing that too. Gently at first! In fact gently at second and third would probably be good too

[bully]

ok, im just learning too... iv looked at a few of these treads and figure i have somthing nobody has said which maybe confusing, correct me if im wrong.
i agree throttle just on thru the corner is great, but i have found when first starting i was doing that, but the revs were too slow, and found higher revs helped, somthing about circular forces. mayb its just on a il4 im not sure, but i try about mid range revs.low revs seemed to make me run wide.
so to sumerise, throttle just cracked but at a reasonable mid revs.

[pritch]

i agree throttle just on thru the corner is great, but i have found when first starting i was doing that, but the revs were too slow, .

You have to be in the right gear. I think the usual quote is "Select a responsive gear". You don't want the engine lugging and you don't want it revving its head off, but you want it to able to respond to the throttle immediately.

[rocketman1]

Some interesting comments here, its very difficult to describe how to corner isn't it?
There are many variations, but basically they tend to follow the same idea, as can be ascertained in the previous threads
I have read that 48% of motorcycle accidents happen on corners so this is an important thread, most I would say involve too faster entry speed. It sure is not nice to find you have entered a corner too fast for your ability I havedone it once or twice, always on roads I have never been on before. To naturally react as previous scribes above to save this type of situation would in my experience take a fair amount of practice, and confidence, to panic is the natural reaction. We need to eliminate panic from our brains!!!
One must "push the envelope" so to speak, you cannot learn how to corner fast, if you you don't try to go faster into corners and "gently" frighten your self a little bit to start with...I guess thats why it best to try and practice all this stuff on a track first and not the road, in saying that
I see many bikes on the open road cornering too fast in my opinion, to be travelling fast around blind corners at extreme lean angles is stupidity, you can never know that there is not gravel, oil, large potholes, a parked truck etc around the corner. I guess youth/ inexperience cancels all those reasons out though.
Hey
I try to go slow in, fast out. But when you don't know the corner how fast is "SLOW IN"... I guess that is why the statistic is at 48%..
Safe Riding and many thousand kms of awesome cornering