Cornering - To brake or not to brake

[MVnut]

I think Ixion and Frosty put it well, there's no generic answer to that question. However I do brake in corners ( when I need/want to ) and although the bike would normally sit up a bit, you just have to be more in control and not let it. And as Frosty points out there is 'that point' where you must get back on the gas. You have to decide what technique suits you and how hard you want to take the corner and what experience you have. Too much information at the wrong time can be very dangerous. Enjoyment is what it's all about.

[scumdog]

Hoekay, my tuppence worth: IF I want to 'play' a little in the twisty bits I knock the bike into a lower gear, in fact into a gear that almost seems one gear TOO low.

The resulting engine braking/accell. out of the corners really puts a smile on your face and saves the brakes a bit too and seems to 'smooth' out the bike.

And I ALWAYS try to brake when travelling in a straight line, less drama, less chance for an 'oops'

But hey, whadoIknow, I ride a Harley and I'm heading towards being 'old'.

[beyond]

It comes down to rider ability, knowing your bike, road surface, weight of you and the machine and lean angle ability of your bike before hard bits touch down...BUT the rule of thumb is for every percentage point you use in braking that comes off your maxiumum grip level.
i.e. Brake at 10% you have 90% grip when cornering. Brake at 90% while cornering and your grip is down to 10%. Same figures stand while accelerating out of a corner. 90% throttle gives 10% grip and 10% throttle gives 90% grip and any other figure you throw into the mix.

Do the maths.... you can get into a hell of a lot of trouble if you don't know the limits of your bike and shouldn't be at 100% grip or braking on the road anyway.

If in an emergency than yep if you need a 100% grip you better be off the brakes which mean you need to stand the bike up a bit more if you are going to get on the brakes. If you aren't at 100% riding when you brake into a corner you have to trade off braking for more grip and counter steer harder to maintain your line under braking.

Short version, out brake the ratios and you're off no matter how good a rider you are.

[scumdog]

i.e. Brake at 10% you have 90% grip when cornering. Brake at 90% while cornering and your grip is down to 10%. Same figures stand while accelerating out of a corner. 90% throttle gives 10% grip and 10% throttle gives 90% grip and any other figure you throw into the mix.

Do the maths.... you can get into a hell of a lot of trouble if you don't know the limits of your bike and shouldn't be at 100% grip or braking on the road anyway.

If in an emergency than yep if you need a 100% grip you better be off the brakes which mean you need to stand the bike up a bit more if you are going to get on the brakes. If you aren't at 100% riding when you brake into a corner you have to trade off braking for more grip and counter steer harder to maintain your line under braking.

Short version, out brake the ratios and you're off no matter how good a rider you are.

What he sed.

Your tyres can only handle so much lateral force.

It is up to you whether those forces are consumed by braking or by cornering.

[Ixion]

Well, I'm way past being merely old. And I don't ride a Harley. But, if I did, I'd probably use that technique. Now, try doing on a multicylinder two stroke! Everything has to work around the bike.

When I get a 'new-to-me' bike,as occasionally happens (it's amazing how many kidneys and other bits you can get by without if you really want to), I take it to a stretch of road I know well. One with lots of corners.

And try running through. Firstly , very conventionally. Brake early, steady throttle till the apex and accelerate out. The try changing things a bit. Not too much as once. Just a wee bit. Downchange maybe ? Hold the braking a bit longer? Trail brake through the corner? Quite a few combinations. See how each feels. A lot, they 'feel bad'. Not good on this bike. Some, 'Hm, that felt OK, lets note that one'. Try that one a bit harder , bit later . Not too much at once, this is an iterative process. Don't be afraid to take a few huindred tries working things out.Once you have an idea of what works for that bike start combining them. Making a mental note of what works best.

Then, you cana move on to the fun stuff. Experimenting with tyre pressures (not too much at once, maybe +- 3psi). And tryes themselves of course. And raising or lowering the fork tubes. Adjusting preload compression damping and rebound. Jump around on the bike, or stay still ?

Once you've worked your way through that lot, you'll know what works best for your bike, your riding style. And you'll be as old as I am !

[MVnut]

Traction is a dark art

[Jerry74]

Sometimes a wee bit of rear brake can help to slide the rear and corner a bit quicker.

Generally not a good idea to brake on corners

[Ixion]

It comes down to rider ability, knowing your bike, road surface, weight of you and the machine and lean angle ability of your bike before hard bits touch down...BUT the rule of thumb is for every percentage point you use in braking that comes off your maxiumum grip level.
i.e. Brake at 10% you have 90% grip when cornering. Brake at 90% while cornering and your grip is down to 10%. Same figures stand while accelerating out of a corner. 90% throttle gives 10% grip and 10% throttle gives 90% grip and any other figure you throw into the mix.

Do the maths.... you can get into a hell of a lot of trouble if you don't know the limits of your bike and shouldn't be at 100% grip or braking on the road anyway.

If in an emergency than yep if you need a 100% grip you better be off the brakes which mean you need to stand the bike up a bit more if you are going to get on the brakes. If you aren't at 100% riding when you brake into a corner you have to trade off braking for more grip and counter steer harder to maintain your line under braking.

Short version, out brake the ratios and you're off no matter how good a rider you are.

That's true. Very true. And I certainly am not going to argue with it. But , it's all a bit more complicated than that.,

Because , some changes to the dynamic configuration of the bike can make the bike corner faster for the same sideways force (ie you can go through faster, and still only have the same lateral g). Hanging off is the clasic example. And sometimes, brakes can be used to initate those beneficial changes . Which is why trail braking works . It doesn't work on every bike, of course. Some , it's a waste of time, negative result. But some, the increase in cornering capability is more than the loss of traction. Yes, 10% brakes reduces your lateral capability to 90%. But if you could safely go through at 80kph with out trail braking, and can go through at 100kph with trail braking, the benefit of loading the geometry outweighs the loss of 10% of the traction budget.

[Motu]

When I get a 'new-to-me' bike,as occasionally happens (it's amazing how many kidneys and other bits you can get by without if you really want to), I take it to a stretch of road I know well. One with lots of corners.

Been doing this lately....unfamiliar bike on familiar road....and I suck! I'm not used to low narrow bars,short travel suspension,low centre of gravity and tyres with so much rubber on the road.I didn't realise I was such a bad rider,and it's taken a bit of time to unlearn my dirt bike habits - actually,it took a fang up a gravel road for me to sus it out.I feel like a new rider,the learning curve is steep....and with so many decades of vast experience behind me,one would think I would know it all,and then some.This is not so,and that's what makes riding such a rewarding experience.

[Ixion]

You've gone to the dark side , haven't you ! Old fella like you, you should be settling for a nice comfortable cruiser. You old chaps shouldn't push your aging faculties on perfromance machinery.

[MVnut]

Lots of mention about back brakes, I don't use them much, unless I want to alter my entry/line. When I'm going quick I often brake very hard right up to and even thru the apex cranked hard over, then hard on the gas cranked hard over also. Traction is not black and white, you can push the front to gain ground clearance thereby creating the possibility of a better line into the next turn. Sometimes you're on the front brakes and at the same time using the gas to work the back-end. If you're looking at a nice smooth line with no drama but still with a bit of fun, Scumdog put it well in his post ( his tuppence worth) well said mate, and we should all ride for the love of the sport and to stay alive. The road is not a racetrack.

[Motu]

You've gone to the dark side , haven't you ! Old fella like you, you should be settling for a nice comfortable cruiser. You old chaps shouldn't push your aging faculties on perfromance machinery.

Not likely - been trying out the R65.....with some taller wide bars and a set of TT100's I might feel more at home on it.

[Ixion]

I knew once there was one Herrenraden in the house they'd stage a takeover. With Panzers . This is the beginning of the Fourth Reich, isn't it.

[svr]

Sometimes a wee bit of rear brake can help to slide the rear and corner a bit quicker.

Generally not a good idea to brake on corners

Thats why you keep the gas on - the rear won't lock.

Bikes's turn very well, and they stop very well. What they suck at is turning and stopping at the same time. What has really pissed me off over the years is all the riders I've seen `bailing' on corners i.e. somewhere in the back of back their head, when they believe they when they are going too fast, they think its still posible to slow down with the front brake. Logically, if you havent got the grip to make the corner, you havent got the grip to brake as well. Inevitably, the bike stands up and they head for the hedge. Really, the rider needs to learn to lean the bike on demand - on a neutral throttle. Top roadracers use maximum lean only when the've blown the corner - on a neutral throttle (for max grip) - bikes slow quickly at max lean with the added advantage of getting you around the corner...
Back to the thread, if the rider is trailing the front brake `as a matter of course', the tendency will be to grab it harder. Don't trail brake on the road.
IMHO of course.

[Pwalo]

I don't see what your problem is. Some corners need you to brake, or change down before you enter them (usually ones you can't see the exit to), some require you to use the brakes (decreasing radius, or descending, or a combination of both), and some let you keep a constant speed or some acceleration (open corners with lovely nice sight lines).

The only problem seems to be identifying them, and watching out for the bits that will hurt you such as cars, debris, gravel, etc. FWIW I try and do my braking/gear changing before I get to the corner, and try and leave myself able to accelerate gently through.

You can't really get a much better bike to ride on the road than the SV.