Cornering - To brake or not to brake

[WierNixie]

Downhill corners are the nemesis of a lot of riders. (I myself prefer uphill corners). The thing is that there's a lot more weight on the front end, which changes the steering geometry (sharpens it up) and the handling characteristics (the centre of mass is further forward), and loads up the front tyre. In theory, this should make tight, downhill corners better than uphill corners (as long as you're not leaning hard on the bars).
I suspect it's one of those "it's all in the head" things. Apart from psyching yourself into it, and maybe making sure your weight is on the inside of the bike, and possibly leaning back a bit to even out the weight distribution, there should be no real difference in how you tackle these corners. By slowing, braking, etc., you're quite possibly making things worse. I guess you just need to practice, practice, practice, and get your confidence up.

Totally believe I am making it worse but don't know what to do if I don't brake & slow down. Sheesh.

[vifferman]

Totally believe I am making it worse but don't know what to do if I don't brake & slow down. Sheesh.

Are you looking through these corners, or at them?
If you're looking through the corner, you'll be setting yourself up for the next corner (if there is one in sight) or for the exit of the current corner.
If you're looking at the corner, and worrying, then you'll more than likely stuff it up.
Remember: your bike can (if handled right) go through the corners much faster than you think you can.

[AlBundy]

Is said downhill corner flat or off-camber?

If it is off camber, it tends to be a mind game more often than not...

For any given lean angle from vertical, you are using more tyre due to the roads angle. Not an issue unless you are going fast though...

Ultimately though, slowing down to a speed you are comfortable with, is a safe option...

Look where you want to go, relax and keep your arms bent... It's not a race, learn at your pace.

Try to pick some of the mentors' brains... There's a lot of tips to be had...

[swbarnett]

For any given lean angle from vertical, you are using more tyre due to the roads angle.

On a circular cross section the angle to the road doesn't change the size of the contact patch. Or am I missing something?

[WierNixie]

These are usually sharp corners, downhill, where I cannot see round the corner easily (usually cannot see round the corner until actually into the corner). I can't really find a place to 'practice' these except where there is traffic.

[AlBundy]

On a circular cross section the angle to the road doesn't change the size of the contact patch. Or am I missing something?

I'm implying there's a psychological aspect, that you are leaning more than you think.

Assuming a tyre has 45 degrees of contact available, then if a road was off camber by 10 degrees, you can theoretically lean 35 degrees before you run out of tyre.

All I'm saying, is perceptions are what makes us ride comfortably at our given speeds. With experience or decent training (which I'm NOT claiming to give), we can alter those perceptions somewhat...

[AlBundy]

These are usually sharp corners, downhill, where I cannot see round the corner easily (usually cannot see round the corner until actually into the corner). I can't really find a place to 'practice' these except where there is traffic.

Assuming you are comfortable with the speed for now, reading the road is a good exercise. Blind corners will always be a point of concern.
Scanning the surface ahead as well as determining whether the road is tightening or opening may yield better progress.
Road knowledge is good, it means you can concentrate on other things while going up and down.

How well do you know the road?

[swbarnett]

I'm implying there's a psychological aspect, that you are leaning more than you think. ...

I just reread your first post and realised that I'd read it wrong. I thought you meant more tyre touching the road. You actually were talking about the road being closer to the upper edge of the tyre. Got it now.

[quickbuck]

These are usually sharp corners, downhill, where I cannot see round the corner easily (usually cannot see round the corner until actually into the corner). I can't really find a place to 'practice' these except where there is traffic.

If you can not see around the corner, then you look for what is termed the Vanishing Point.
This is the point where the objects on the left side of the road appear to meet the objects on the right.
Keep your eyes pinned on this point in order for your bike to go around the corner smoothly.
If this point comes closer then the corner is about to tighten, thus roll off the throttle.
If the point gets farther away, then you can afford to roll on the throttle.. .assuming the road surface allows it.
Just because you can, doesn't make it safe.

Your corner speed will increase with practice. But be aware, if you can't see the exit, then ANYTHING could be around there, and you may not have time to react. Take it easy... the speed will come.

[Crisis management]

Totally believe I am making it worse but don't know what to do if I don't brake & slow down. Sheesh.

On a completely (not entirely) different tangent and in addition to all the advice you have received.....how about just go for a longer ride? I've been riding and falling off successfully for almost 40 years and yet when i've not been on the bike for a day or two it still takes me 30 minutes to settle into the groove and stop stuffing things up.
My riding improves the longer the ride and the more I settle into it (I'm talking a couple of hundred Kms here) and maybe you will find if you just pootle off for a couple of hours at a time, not worrying about your technique, it will begin to fall into place.
Once you begin to relax and trust the tyres and bike it will all fall into place and your cornering will improve.

And do the RRRS course.


Enjoy.

[The Pastor]

Correct procedure?

My idea of correct procedure is learning gradually as you gain experience.

Trying to become Rossi overnight just aint gonna work.

totally agree, push it to your limit every day, gradually you will get better (i.e., faster)

[BMWST?]

wow good posts....the mere act of beginning to turn starts to slow you down.
Trail braking..i would only do this on)roads I know,ir if i have misjudged a corner slightly.or if i ma Trail braking to me means mostly the front brake,but it is modulated,ie by the time the bike is at the apex the front brake is off....bigger heavier bikes will tend to try and stand up but you compensate for this cos you know....you gotta be smooth..buy an old soft suspension shaft drive bike to learn smooth cornering techniques

[svr]

Is said downhill corner flat or off-camber?

If it is off camber, it tends to be a mind game more often than not...

Ultimately though, slowing down to a speed you are comfortable with, is a safe option...

There is a lot less grip available on negative camber as the bike is trying to slide downhill. Tyres also work a lot better when `loaded' i.e. pushed into the tarmac.

Most riders get into trouble `slowing down to a comfortable speed' at the wrong time. Better, safer riders understand the limts of available grip and are comfortable using more of their bikes' cornering performance when required.

[OutForADuck]

IMHO `trail braking' is out of place on the road for these reasons:
1. Its not required on spriral / constant arc / spiral corners of public roads, mainly just the bastard decreasing radius corners found on every track.
2. The front brake is the most powerful control on a motorcycle. If you're trailing it into every corner, and something unexpected causes you to panic, you'll tend to grab the brake too hard, which is Very Bad.
3. Its a technique to get the last second or so on the track. Safety is the main concern on the road.
4. Bruce Anstey, possibly the worlds best public roads racer, doesn't trail brake much, if at all. Maybe it held him back on the track, but it didn't on the roads. Roads are different.
5. Bikes handle better with the power on - slower in and gas out gives more precise riding and better visibilty
6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

Get on the power in corner.. brake (trail) if you don't have enough room to get it done before meaning you messed up. Rossi even has a let go brake marker which is early in the corner.. bet if he's on the road it before he even pitches in...

Breaking loads the front and unsettles the bike mid corner if you have to let go then.

[stormerUK]

Downhill blind corners have to be approached with the engine braking ability more pronounced i.e instead of the rev needle just 1/2 way round the clock the needle needs to be in between your max power revs and max torque revs. These figures will be in your manual and best marked by two bits of tape on the rev counter glass. This will enable you to dump more speed via the rear wheel slowing and then apply throttle to chase the vanishing point and thus move some of the turning/braking force off the front tyre enabling more tyre footprint trade off and more grip.