Absolute bollocks! (Self defence issue)

[Bren]

Another attack in the herald site this morning...

The owner of an Auckland Lotto store and dairy is in hospital with stab wounds in his neck and back after being attacked late yesterday afternoon.
It was at least the fourth serious attack on an Auckland shop worker this year, and followed a police decision to charge a liquor retailer after an altercation with two youths this week.
In yesterday's attack, a man went into the Lotto store on New Windsor Rd in Avondale and stabbed the owner, said Inspector Karen Lane of the police northern communications centre.

Full Story here.

I would not own a dairy for the life of me (because that is what it may cost)...

Whats happened to the good old days when a murder was something that happened maybe once or twice a year, not every second day...
...where ya could hop outta your Holden Premiere and leave the keys in it, engine running, and go into the bottle store knowing that your holden would still be there when ya got back...
...where you could leave the door unlocked, and windows open and have a decent sleep knowing all would be okay!

[Reckless]

Whats happened to the good old days when a murder was something that happened maybe once or twice a year, not every second day...
...where ya could hop outta your Holden Premiere and leave the keys in it, engine running, and go into the bottle store knowing that your holden would still be there when ya got back...
...where you could leave the door unlocked, and windows open and have a decent sleep knowing all would be okay!

Whats happened my friend is when some drunken scumbag stabs you and you give him a good beating you get charged!!

The fact remains whether the guy went over the top or not (that remains to be seen) it simply would not have happened at all if the scumbag wasn't there doing what he was doing. So remind me who's the victim here??? Not the shopkeeper in my book! And for all those that may disagree I don't give a fuck my minds made up!!!

OH and by the way this sends a good message to all the other scumbags out there as well doesn't it!!!

[Ocean1]

Actually you’re still innocent until you pay the fine – it’s taken as an admission of guilt

Yeah, but I've done it the outher way as well. Didn't make a blind bit of difference. Hence the attitude.

Better stop reading newspapers then!!!

Other than the crossword, when I get time, I don't.

If I didn't need it to light the barbie I'd cancel it.

But saying I'll believe it if I see it is a very bold statement. It's like saying the Antartic is not there because I haven't seen it.

But I have.

And, while there's a whole bunch of stuff I'm quite happy to believe is more than likely to exist, or to have happened based on repeated consistent reports, I've not found the press to be a reliable source of such reports.

Quite the contrary, on a few cases where I was closely associated with the events surrounding what later became a media report the story strayed universally so far from the facts that it was unrecognisable from what actually did happen.

So the only value I get from the media is that of entertainment, if I want facts I look elsewhere.

[slimjim]

weeee.....sorted...bad blood now...no rules..

[Ocean1]

But who’s offering a better alternative?

LAW AND ORDER
All laws against victimless 'crimes' involving consenting adults will be repealed, in order that real crimes with genuine victims like rape, robbery, murder, theft and fraud can be vigorously pursued and the rights of these victims enforced and upheld. All people currently incarcerated for victimless 'crimes' will be immediately released. Life sentences for real crimes will mean life. The NZ Bill of Rights will be amended to uphold your right to self-defence and the right to possess the means of self-defence.

http://www.libertarianz.org.nz/

[Winston001]

Whats happened to the good old days when a murder was something that happened maybe once or twice a year, not every second day...
...where ya could hop outta your Holden Premiere and leave the keys in it, engine running, and go into the bottle store knowing that your holden would still be there when ya got back...
...where you could leave the door unlocked, and windows open and have a decent sleep knowing all would be okay!

They still exist - in the provinces. At least down here in Otago and Southland. Had a guy formerly from South Auckland point this out to me yesterday - he was astonished at the cars sitting unlocked, keys in ignition at the local supermarket.

Scummy will have a more accurate idea.

[Winston001]

That’s the real point isn’t it – do we have faith in our thin blue line to be there when we need them (they always seem to be there when I drive too fast).

Well said but I don't think it is reasonable to expect an instant response from the police. To get that you'd need a huge number of police officers just sitting around in every neighbourhood, helicoptor support, on the off-chance a crime might take place. We wouldn't pay for it, and shouldn't expect it.

And once apprehended do we have faith that our justice system (department of corrections included) will sufficiently punish or rehabilitate them as to deter them from re-offending or dissuade people from taking up a life of crime?

We all ask that question but there is a much more fundamental issue - common respect for each other and the rules we live by. When that respect breaks down sufficiently, society dissolves into anarchy. Blaming the justice system, the police, lawyers, judges, etc etc is useless because they are at the hard end of the problem - the bottom of the cliff.

Are the consequences enough? I don’t think they are;
I think the chances of being caught are getting slimmer, and the consequences getting less

Contrary to public perception, our penal system has grown harsher over the past 20 years. We imprison more people per capita apart for the USA. Pretty shocking for a laid-back nation like NZ.

As for crime, both nationally and internationally its been dropping. Again, this is counter-intuitive because we think its growing but the reason is media reporting is ratings driven and is disproportionately exaggerated.

[McJim]

They still exist - in the provinces. At least down here in Otago and Southland. Had a guy formerly from South Auckland point this out to me yesterday - he was astonished at the cars sitting unlocked, keys in ignition at the local supermarket.

Scummy will have a more accurate idea.

I recall having a similar conversation with you a month ago. And I used to live near South Auckland (which, after Glasgow and London) also seemed very quaint and sheltered to me.

[slofox]

So the cops are to prosecute the guy who used a hockey stick when confronted by a couple of little thugs in his liquor store.......how easy a prosecution that must be. The dude gets stabbed and HE gets prosecuted. Makes sense.....? Total wankism on the part of the coppers IMO....
Now I don't know if he was a little premature in his "self defense" but even so, it was the little buggers who came into his shop and confronted him. What is he supposed to do? Open his shirt and say "Stab here please?"
Should this happen to me I would have absolutely no compunction about getting in first - if I could. Any little snot who points a knife or other at me deserves to have his arm broken with a piece of pipe. And if they want to prosecute me for that then get it on, boys, get it on. I will never pay a fine - you will have to stick me in jail. And you can have all the publicity you want........grrrrantsnortraveroargibberhoottweetzzzzzzzitttzzz zz....

[Winston001]

I recall having a similar conversation with you a month ago. And I used to live near South Auckland (which, after Glasgow and London) also seemed very quaint and sheltered to me.

Glasgow?? You were lucky! There were half a dozen of us used to live i'tenament i'South Central LA. We used to brick up the doors every night before we went to sleep which wasn't a lot of fun wot wif the lavatory being down the hall.....ah but we were 'appy!

[MSTRS:Me]

As for crime, both nationally and internationally its been dropping. Again, this is counter-intuitive because we think its growing but the reason is media reporting is ratings driven and is disproportionately exaggerated.

But it is obvious that violent crimes are on the increase. And that is where the problem lies...the Farce can't respond (in time) to events like dairy robberies, home invasions, farm vehicle thefts etc... but the victims are discouraged from doing whatever it takes to protect themselves and their livelihood. And should they do so, then the system sees them as the bad guy. Of course, a jury of my peers may not find them guilty of any crime, but they have been left in shit street by the costs involved. Shafted from all sides, what are they supposed to do?
Edit...and complying with said robbers demands is no guarantee of survival. With the other downside being that word soon gets around that Mr Singh's dairy is easy pickings....

[Winston001]

I'm not saying we should be complacent, or accept knife carrying yoof as normal, or not be entitled to defend ourselves. However, like it or not, crime is decreasing. Violent crime reporting is increasing but that's because we now speak more openly about violence and victims are encouraged to speak up - previously they kept quiet. Think of abused children and spouses.

Have a look at this study http://www.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/about/..._incidence.cfm

"The incidence of crime in New Zealand has steadily decreased over the last decade, according to a recent study.

"This is contrary to popular perception," says Julia Tolmie, co-editor of Criminal Justice in New Zealand (published by Lexis Nexis) and associate professor of law at The University of Auckland.

"What has changed is that the amount of people who are being prosecuted and the sentences that they are getting have both increased. In other words, the numbers we are locking up for committing crimes have been rapidly increasing in recent years even though crime is not growing."

[devnull]

I'm not saying we should be complacent, or accept knife carrying yoof as normal, or not be entitled to defend ourselves. However, like it or not, crime is decreasing. Violent crime reporting is increasing but that's because we now speak more openly about violence and victims are encouraged to speak up - previously they kept quiet. Think of abused children and spouses.

Have a look at this study http://www.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/about/..._incidence.cfm

"The incidence of crime in New Zealand has steadily decreased over the last decade, according to a recent study.

"This is contrary to popular perception," says Julia Tolmie, co-editor of Criminal Justice in New Zealand (published by Lexis Nexis) and associate professor of law at The University of Auckland.

"What has changed is that the amount of people who are being prosecuted and the sentences that they are getting have both increased. In other words, the numbers we are locking up for committing crimes have been rapidly increasing in recent years even though crime is not growing."

Sorry dude, that's bullshit.

Looks all rosy if you include ALL crime - slice out violent crime and see how those stats look.

It's going up, not down.

I feel sorry for those cops who genuinely want to make a difference - they get screwed by the system, and their own management.

As for being a member of the public, you're pretty much left to your own devices. If you don't protect yourself, nobody else will....

[Winston001]

Mmmmm......

In 2006/2007 there were 102.5 recorded offences for every thousand people -- compared with 128.5 in 1996/1997.


However I do wonder about violent crime too and would like to see some more stats. P/Meth fuelled violence didn't exist years ago.

[scumdog]

There isn't a jury in the land that will find that shop keeper guilty, yet us tax payers will have to foot the bill for his defence and the defence of the criminals.

I suspect Malcolm that each time one of these 'prosecutions' fail it stretches the envelope of what we (citizens) CAN do to repulse an attack.

Of course I could be spouting shit here.
(As usual)