True Production Racing series

[Robert Taylor]

Like what class Robert? 150 Street Stock? On bikes that are no longer produced? 125GP? On bikes that once again need 'A' or 'B' kits fitted to win?

F3...where money wins?



GSXR's, CBR's, ZX's and YZF's are now basically race bikes with road gear Robert. A good punter (Mladin etc) on a new GSXR1000 (stock) would give Eddie Lawson a go on his old NSR. Fact.

There will always be an after market scene (so don't worry yourself to sleep), but that's not to say that 'production racing' ain't where it's at.

This thread is (and I know it's been said before...by me and many others Robert) all about PRODUCTION RACING.

Find yourself the 'Aftermarket suspension rules' thread and post till your merry heart's content in that.

Sean is trying to do a good thing for NZ road racing with this...don't matter if it happens or not.

Remember this though...how come now we have no true 'proddie racing' class we've not of late 'produced' any world class racers?

I thought this forum was a democracy and I have just as much right as anyone else to make positive and opposing comments in any thread. As far as I am aware we have also just got rid of a system that tried to tell everyone what they could and couldnt do. All such attitudes that have rubbed off should be ideally exorcised.
Pro Twins is a relatively affordable class, to state the obvious. If you have a beer income its best to not have champagne tastes.
Current bikes are in relative terms very poor racebikes because the engine power and chassis loads are ever more disproportionate to the capabilities of the suspension, which certainly hasnt advanced at the same pace. ( My whole point ) But we can agree to disagree. And in a further generalised reply it must be pointed out that we sell and modify many suspension units for road going bikes that never ever see a race track, because of the deficiencies of the oem gear.
On balance it seems from my own experience that there is a silent and substanial number of riders who have the means to fit good gear, according to my own sales figures. Why discriminate against them ( effectively )?
But I do wish Shaun the best with this even though I cannot see how it can even return a modest profit for him ( which he should get for all the considerable effort required ) My personal view is that if it does get off the ground and gets more people on seats then it will help to strengthen the elite classes.
To blame a lack of world class racers cannot be singled out on the current two elite classes. What may have worked in the past in no way means that it will work in a very much changed world. The answers and reasons are much much more complex than many think.

[k14]

125GP? On bikes that once again need 'A' or 'B' kits fitted to win?

Not sure about your other statements but that one is just plain wrong. Cam Jones won last years title on a bog standard 96 RS125. The year before Cam Horgan won the title on a very close to standard 2001 RS125. As I always say, 80% rider 20% bike.

[Mishy]

A mate of mine bought a Mk3 RG250 that was an ex Proddie race bike from a dealer that had supported the 250 proddy series. It had some "interesting" modifications or "interpretation" of the rules, so not to sure on the even playing field bit.
Certainly a series as proposed by Shaun would have to be the best bet to try and have a standard class.

Yes, back when the 250 proddie bikes were the thing it was certainly "may the best cheat go faster" and that's widely known. i've seen Kawasaki's with outageous shocks disguised as standard, race kit ECU's, Honda's with god know's what cylinders, Suzuki's with wheels that were too wide, and all other types of S@#t that wasn't legal. At least we don't have that now . . . . . . .

[Sketchy_Racer]

Another thing to think about, is with all this talk of after market goodies and especially young riders this will affect, is the mental side of this.

With all the hoo haa about how important aftermarket stuff is, a young rider will get it into thier head that it is impossible to win unless they have all the gear.

I dare say that a NZ top level rider could quite comfortably go out and own a club series on a stock bike. There is still potential to do amazing lap times on stock equipment. I remember Jay doing something like 1:09s round manfeild on a bog stock bike. Not only a testament to his skill, but that OEM gear can still go 'fast'

If someone did 1:09s at the VMCC winter series, they would have cleaned up the whole feild with a second a lap to spare!

Why not learn to get the most out of what you have before spending large sums on equipment to later find out that the limitation is infact yourself and not the bike?

I believe the best class that could exist alongside the current classes in NZ at the moment would be 100% BOG stock 600 supersport bikes, with a limitation for one set of tyres per meeting. Cheap and awesome racing is what it would be.

Imagine, a national round would cost you no more than fuel and a set of tyres essentially.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Not sure about your other statements but that one is just plain wrong. Cam Jones won last years title on a bog standard 96 RS125. The year before Cam Horgan won the title on a very close to standard 2001 RS125. As I always say, 80% rider 20% bike.

That's exactly what I'm saying though mate...goes to show you what you can do with the skill/balls you need!

But you see..there were probably racers in that class that got beat by someone with a bigger cheque book too!

[Mishy]

Sorry mate...that's utter bullshit! We've seen with the move from 1000cc GP bikes to 800cc's that going 'round corners faster = bigger and NASTIER crashes! So going round corners on bikes with 'Ohlins' faster than you can with stock suspenders = the same thing! WORK it out!!??



Sorry AGAIN! Crap. If you didn't crash for a whole season...it's because you were riding at a speed you were comfortable with, and you were unwilling to go beyond that speed to find the true limit of how fast your 'Ohlins' suspended bike could go.


I'm sure you're only too aware that modern sports bikes have suspension that is VERY adjustable Robert. Yes we know that said adjustment is not as accurate and infinately adjustable as the Ohlins you continue to peddle is...but to say the 'Rider' learns "Very little if anything" is once again...BULLSHIT.

Racers of 'Production' bikes can learn this...
1:The difference tyre pressure makes
2:The difference spring (front and rear) preload makes.
3:The difference compression and rebound damping makes (both front and rear, and now often high and low speed as well)
4:The difference where the rear axle is placed in the swingarm.
5:The difference where the forks are in the triple clamps makes.
6:The difference a few extra litres of fuel makes.
7:The difference it makes when you sit differently on the bike.
8:The HUGE difference mental attitude can make.
9:....and my favorite one...the difference it makes when you're not beaten because you can't afford to spend the money some cunt that's slower than you can. THAT is the joy of 'Proddie' racing people!

Um, that's a lot you have to say there ! I have no problem with production racing, and wish Shaun well, but not at the expence of one of our premier classes.
It's an UNDENIABLE FACT that good suspension saves tyre, and therefore cash. I worked on tyres with 6 riders last year, and I KNOW THIS. It's also fairly clear that good suspension gives most "average" riders a good margin to make mistakes without getting into trouble, and it's also fairly clear that the more powerfull the bike, the more easily it overcomes tha standard rear suspension unit. Modern sports bikes are a razor sharp tool compared with the older sports bikes (or worse) that some might have raced, and the tyres are more like racing slicks than road tyres - It's just the way technology has advanced - and they behave just like that. You just have to consider this when talking rules for production bikes, because it colours things differently.

You can wind the clickers on a sports bike all you like - you'll just tie the shock up and just won't be changing the things that matter, and you'll be wasting your time. Fork height makes a bike steer quicker or slower - but has stuff all effect on anything more meaningful - the big changes are done dynamically - with shock or fork valving, and stock is just no good for that, which leads to a whole bunch of other bad things - tearing tyres to bits is one of them.

Bruce Anstey cut his teeth on production bikes, but he also whined like a stuck pig when the GSXR he rode out here a few years ago didn't have the right suspension for him. Even guys like him aspire to better, more sophisticated machinery, and a lot of that is to do with suspension

Having said all that, I believe there is a place for a stock class - but one which suits stock suspension (less powerful that 600SP) and tied to tyres that are more forgiving on machinery and suspension of this type. it would be great to see more of the guys racing at club level get up and go to national events. We just need to accept that for 600SP and SBK it's appropriate for the best guys on the best bikes to be allowed to use the appropriate suspension and tyres for the job, and that It's VITAL to have 600SP as a feeder class for SBK that gives riders and teams a chance to learn to use the technology required to make the step up to the premier class. Craig Shirriffs got going quickly on SBK partly because of talent and determination, but also partly because he was familiar with the suspension technology, and had a race engineer who had an exceptional underatanding of it as well.
Maybe Pro Twins missed the boat a little on the budget front, that's a matter of opinion, and maybe Shaun's venture will be able to provide better bang for buck ( I hope so mate) We'll need to see how all that pans out, and I think it's going to be kinda interesting

[Mishy]

I remember Jay doing something like 1:09s round manfeild on a bog stock bike. Not only a testament to his skill, but that OEM gear can still go 'fast'

If someone did 1:09s at the VMCC winter series, they would have cleaned up the whole feild with a second a lap to spare!

Yeah, Jays bike (R6) had an ohlins in the back for that meeting (kindly lent by Brian Bernard), and his times were way slower, and way less consistant with the stock unit before we changed. Yes, stock can go fast, but you can go WAY FASTER for longer on something better, and that's when It's more fun. Imagine something that handled like your RS250 but with 20 more HP - now that's fun fun fun

[Crasherfromwayback]

Um, that's a lot you have to say there ! I have no problem with production racing, and wish Shaun well, but not at the expence of one of our premier classes.
It's an UNDENIABLE FACT that good suspension saves tyre, and therefore cash. I worked on tyres with 6 riders last year, and I KNOW THIS. It's also fairly clear that good suspension gives most "average" riders a good margin to make mistakes without getting into trouble, and it's also fairly clear that the more powerfull the bike, the more easily it overcomes tha standard rear suspension unit. Modern sports bikes are a razor sharp tool compared with the older sports bikes (or worse) that some might have raced, and the tyres are more like racing slicks than road tyres - It's just the way technology has advanced - and they behave just like that. You just have to consider this when talking rules for production bikes, because it colours things differently.

You can wind the clickers on a sports bike all you like - you'll just tie the shock up and just won't be changing the things that matter, and you'll be wasting your time. Fork height makes a bike steer quicker or slower - but has stuff all effect on anything more meaningful - the big changes are done dynamically - with shock or fork valving, and stock is just no good for that, which leads to a whole bunch of other bad things - tearing tyres to bits is one of them.

Bruce Anstey cut his teeth on production bikes, but he also whined like a stuck pig when the GSXR he rode out here a few years ago didn't have the right suspension for him. Even guys like him aspire to better, more sophisticated machinery, and a lot of that is to do with suspension

Having said all that, I believe there is a place for a stock class - but one which suits stock suspension (less powerful that 600SP) and tied to tyres that are more forgiving on machinery and suspension of this type. it would be great to see more of the guys racing at club level get up and go to national events. We just need to accept that for 600SP and SBK it's appropriate for the best guys on the best bikes to be allowed to use the appropriate suspension and tyres for the job, and that It's VITAL to have 600SP as a feeder class for SBK that gives riders and teams a chance to learn to use the technology required to make the step up to the premier class. Craig Shirriffs got going quickly on SBK partly because of talent and determination, but also partly because he was familiar with the suspension technology, and had a race engineer who had an exceptional underatanding of it as well.
Maybe Pro Twins missed the boat a little on the budget front, that's a matter of opinion, and maybe Shaun's venture will be able to provide better bang for buck ( I hope so mate) We'll need to see how all that pans out, and I think it's going to be kinda interesting

Ummm...that's a lot you've got to say too mate!

I know Bruce Ainstey well. Managed to beat him to the NZ 250TT title in '91' racing 250 'proddie'. He's a good friend of mine. Bruce has never 'whined like a stuck pig'...and never will. Not his style.

All of you people seem to forget the ONE big issue here...and with NZ road racing as a whole. That is...ever since we've not had true 'Proddie racing'...we've not produced a racer of world class.

Name one? If I'm wrong...I'll happily admit it. If you can't...admit it yourself, and get in behind it.

[gav]

Ummm...that's a lot you've got to say too mate!

I know Bruce Ainstey well. Managed to beat him to the NZ 250TT title in '91' racing 250 'proddie'. He's a good friend of mine. Bruce has never 'whined like a stuck pig'...and never will. Not his style.

All of you people seem to forget the ONE big issue here...and with NZ road racing as a whole. That is...ever since we've not had true 'Proddie racing'...we've not produced a racer of world class.

Name one? If I'm wrong...I'll happily admit it. If you can't...admit it yourself, and get in behind it.

How about Dom Jones?
I already commented on this too,
Well, all the guys you mentioned took their abilities off shore and honed their skills racing overseas. Good to see the likes of Sam Smith doing a few races in Aus but really some of the younger guys need to quit NZ and head for Aus or even better Spain or the UK. I blame Andrew Stroud, while the old bugger keeps winning here in NZ it makes it a bit tougher for a young Kiwi to take a NZ champ title with them in their CV's.

[Kickaha]

All of you people seem to forget the ONE big issue here...and with NZ road racing as a whole. That is...ever since we've not had true 'Proddie racing'...we've not produced a racer of world class.

True "Proddie racing, really?

So we go back to "Proddie racing and we'll miraculosly have a new world class racer? (insert Tui add here)

We made up our own KR1SP's here in New Zealand for proddie racing back in '91'...much faster than a normal KR1S! 35mm carbs and reed blocks from the domestic only 'R' version...with 1.5mm shaved from the head...we raised the exhaust port by 1mm, and cleaned up the transfers. Things were great to ride albeit pretty peaky!!!

Doesn't sound very "Proddie" to me? , what exactly did the rules allow?

[Crasherfromwayback]

True "Proddie racing, really?

So we go back to "Proddie racing and we'll miraculosly have a new world class racer? (insert Tui add here)



Doesn't sound very "Proddie" to me? , what exactly did the rules allow?

That's because maybe you didn't and don't know that to be deemed a 'Production bike' you only had to have ten avail. Remember the Whire wheel Katanas? Do you not think they were made here for proddie racing mate? Black pipe GSX1100's? The KR1s was well down on power due to the 28mm carbs they ran...so we built ten with 35mm carbs from the domestic KR1R and had them homologated by Jim Doherty of the then NZACU. No problem.

[Robert Taylor]

Ummm...that's a lot you've got to say too mate!

I know Bruce Ainstey well. Managed to beat him to the NZ 250TT title in '91' racing 250 'proddie'. He's a good friend of mine. Bruce has never 'whined like a stuck pig'...and never will. Not his style.

All of you people seem to forget the ONE big issue here...and with NZ road racing as a whole. That is...ever since we've not had true 'Proddie racing'...we've not produced a racer of world class.

Name one? If I'm wrong...I'll happily admit it. If you can't...admit it yourself, and get in behind it.

Yes Mishy did have a lot to say and it made perfect sense. As he has an intimate understanding of tyres and how they interact with his own higher level of suspension set up knowledge I believe he is more qualified to comment with sound answers than some of the (frankly ) emotional and less than informed posts on this thread.
Bruce Anstey lost that series because the forks he was given to run were stock standard ( aside from some K-tech lower compression adjusters, a band aid and actually illegal at that time ) and as it turned out there were riders that were better than him in the dry races.
To infer that true production racing is what we need to produce world class racers is frankly a very big call. Concedingly, it would help to do so ( but only help ) if it raised competitor numbers. The rest of the world has moved on and we have to be in tune with that.
With the greatest respect to Shauns proposal a true production series would allow every brand to compete within a series i.e inclusion for every preferred flavour.
And another point, when one harks back to the days of wire wheel GSXs etc who fairly calls who the most creative cheats in the business were?

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Hey Mishy and Robert, you guys are engineers, as such, you will always want to work with the best tools. Thats fine.

Racers just wanna race, and the cheaper the better. As long as everyones in the same boat, any "formula" will work. But to encourage partipants, we need low barriers to racing, ESPECIALLY in a tough economic climate.

If has been pointed out that the VMCC fields are massive in comparison to nationals fields. A way of encouraging these club riders into steping up is a production class. It will only benefit road racing.

Go to any MX meet and as a road racer, it is staggering to see the large fields and large spectator turnout. MX racing is widely accessable. Brand new bikes can be had for less than 10k and many standard bikes are raced (competively). MX is so grass roots and very NZ. Road racing in NZ has an elitest overtone. I feel this attitude is hurting the sport.

Its frustrating that the powers to be make more consideration for the needs of industry than that of the riders. Give riders want they want.

Personally, I have raced street stock. I made a start in pro-twins but I found the SV engine to be quite lazy and unsatisfying to race. These lower cost classes are great for some but not for all.

Bring on proddie racing with decent bikes.

[Robert Taylor]

Hey Mishy and Robert, you guys are engineers, as such, you will always want to work with the best tools. Thats fine.

Racers just wanna race, and the cheaper the better. As long as everyones in the same boat, any "formula" will work. But to encourage partipants, we need low barriers to racing, ESPECIALLY in a tough economic climate.

If has been pointed out that the VMCC fields are massive in comparison to nationals fields. A way of encouraging these club riders into steping up is a production class. It will only benefit road racing.

Go to any MX meet and as a road racer, it is staggering to see the large fields and large spectator turnout. MX racing is widely accessable. Brand new bikes can be had for less than 10k and many standard bikes are raced (competively). MX is so grass roots and very NZ. Road racing in NZ has an elitest overtone. I feel this attitude is hurting the sport.

Its frustrating that the powers to be make more consideration for the needs of industry than that of the riders. Give riders want they want.

Personally, I have raced street stock. I made a start in pro-twins but I found the SV engine to be quite lazy and unsatisfying to race. These lower cost classes are great for some but not for all.

Bring on proddie racing with decent bikes.

Actually, many many road racers want the best possible setup, it would be naive to think that everyone wants institutionalised mediocrity.
Have you been to MX Nationals recently? If not check out what suspension is currently the points leader in MX1, MX2, 125 Senior and Junior. These guys want good suspension and know the value of same.

[Shaun]

Isn't it about time Shaun told us what he has now that we have tried so hard to keep this thread going...

When the buisness plan is complete, all will be told Cleve.

I have read every post in this thread so far, and there are 2 men on here, that ARE going to be a part of this, ans asked to help with the drawing up the final plan for the series.

$200k Plus is a lot of money to be out laying based on Passion, I belive this class structure will bring out many many.

I am very interested in talking with and SERIOUS people, RE a % of owner ship of this programme, if you are interested, you can all see my phone number.