True Production Racing series

[Robert Taylor]

Exactly.

Stock GSXR600s haven't gotten a hell of a lot faster or slower over the last 3 years, and there's plenty of them floating around.

But right now the rules mean that they're not competitive. End of story.

Change the rules, reduce the cost, more guys go racing and the talent floats to the top regardless of whether it can afford to get past a $50K per season starting barrier... everyone except Mr Taylor and 'Mishy' (neither of whom race!) wins.

Indeed neither of us race ( one used to ) but what is often overklooked is that we look after a lot of people at either minimal or no cost. We contribute a hell of a lot.
Check out Jay racers posts in a similiar thread, sound reasoning borne of coalface experience with up to date machinery.

[gammaguy]

the reality is that the nationals are lacking in numbers. Something has to be done to get the numbers up and the spectators on seats. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN BY ITSELF. In fact, the coming season and 2010 season will see either a reduction of numbers or reduced racing budgets as the economy tightens. For example, I know Brian Bernard is contending with a reduced budget this year. I can only speculate, but he may not be running the same number or riders this year, than last.

Point is, look at the big picture, motorcycle racing is struggling. Maybe proddie racing is what is needed to get the numbers and bums on seats? Look at the success on of the Suzuki Swift class! what a spectacle. great racing! CHEAP racing. ALthough, sorry Pete, but I couldnt race GB500's, would rather race bicycles!


I would be keen to race a proddie class with gixxer 600's, just cant do it this season but will be on grid in 2010, just for the love of riding, racing and meeting people.

well said,and until some ppl realise that unless the sport is economically viable for everyone it will die.

IMHO puritism is for rich bastards,and the sport doesnt have enough of those to survive on its own,unless it is to become as noticeable as indoor darts to anyone except those doing it.i doubt that is what anyone wants,we need to preach to the converted sure,but also to convert more,as racers,riders and spectators.and of course,sponsors.

[Robert Taylor]

Nothing's stopping me.



But after the '09 winter series, Clubmans will no longer be where I want to play.

And why not change the situation to fit me? It's not just me who feels this way.



You know I love you, bro, but I do also think you've got your head a little too far up RT's arse and have therefore swallowed a little too much propaganda.

Fuxache, motorcycle racing is not economy-stimulating R&D, it's just a sport. To listen to RT you'd think it was only slightly below more efficient dairy farming practices in terms of things that NZ scientists should be worrying about.

'Development' happens at the head offices of Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Triumph. (And Ohlins, of course, all hail the mighty Swedes with the elaborate and opaque pricing structure, etc.) Here, we just buy the results and go have fun on them.

(Yes, I know RT & Co spend ages twiddling shock settings to suit riders, and that's 'development'. But there are plenty of engine tuners around the country who spend even more time twiddling engines to make better power, and I don't see them in this thread preaching doom and gloom about the idea of production racing.)

My point is that some simple rule changes could halve the cost of a racing season and make the whole process a shitload easier to handle. That really is true.

I don't advocate scrapping the formula classes, but how about a matched 'proddy' class alongside each (like F3 and Pro Twins, but more 'proddy' than Pro Twins)?

Frankly, you make some very huge presumptions.

You have no idea how many hours I work, point of fact its very similiar to one leading engine tuner.

Opaque pricing structures, please elaborate at length....if you think Im getting wealthy then you are very very wrong.

Bear in mind that there are also lower cost but still very effective options, particularly in the field of piston kits for forks. Very soon Im modifying some 675 Triumph forks with some relatively new ''bending shim stack'' Race Tech mid valve pistons. Lets see how they work out compared to the ''full monty''

''Halve the cost of racing'' ( Apolgies for the abrupt response )...Bollocks. Youd have to include in that negotiating heavily reduced rates for fuel to get to and from the meetings, ferry crossings, accomodation, meals etc. Dont like your chances on that front.

I think Ill go and beat my head against a brick wall or sink a couple of bottles of red !, might get more sense back.

But in all fairness to Shauns proposal and following all the rhetoric ( largely from forum users only ) lets see how many put their money up front.

[Robert Taylor]

Ok Robert...this is the last time I'll ask you any questions, as it's blindingly obvious you hide behind drivel instead of taking the time to answer them.

My 'responses' here are in order going from the top. I've 'gapped' your 'responses' so you know which bit of your post I'm referring to....in what order.

Do I ever give up? No. I'm a stubborn fucker. I'm glad that being stubborn is part of my makeup. It's helped me achieve certain things that to this day I'm extremely proud of. 'Expletives'? You use them when you think the time is right or 'appropriate'? So do I. I'd never use such foul language around my mother...certain girlfriends I've had...or 95% of my customers. So what gives you the right to say when or where they're 'appropriate' on this site? It's a fucking 'biker' site FFS. Most 'bikers' I know use such words frequently.

Now...the 'Holy Grail' bit. If you realize that here in good old NZ half (if not most) of the problem for aspiring racers is travel and the bit of water that we must all cross, and the cost to do so...why on earth would we want to add to said cost by having to run expensive suspension etc to remain competitive?

Next...You know only too well the deficiencies of stock suspension? What...from a 'racers' point of view...or from an 'Ohlins' dealer point of view?
Can you ride a modern sportsbike past the limits of it's 'stock suspension' capability? I'll bet you can't!

Do I personally 'victimise' or 'despise' racers that have 'top line suspension'?

Where'd you get that idea Robert? As I've said repeatadly...I've raced proddie bikes and bikes with (funnily enough) Ohlins suspension. You see...I'd love nothing more than to see young NZ road racers reach greater hights...but making them have to have the most expensive equipment avail is hardly going to help the cause.

So now why don't you look back through my previous posts that include you, and see if instead of telling me what a potty mouth I have...if you can actually answer the other questions I've asked you without sounding like some purified offspring of Patricia Bartlet.

You need to get out more.

Suffice to say the demeanour of your post does you little credit. Your standards are clearly different to mine in many respects, and it matters not how I seek to justify my own standards and opinions. It is clear that you are deriving enjoyment out of obnoxiousness. ( All to be said. )
I steadfastly stand by my technical opinions.

[vtec]

Hey Robert, with our idea you wouldn't need to do so much work. You could sit back a bit more, watch some of the racing.

I'm sure you do a lot of your advice and adjustments for free. But like I've said before getting access to the kind of help you can offer is not easy. We want to ride WAAAA, WAAA. Look I'm breaking down. Just let us have a class in which it's all about the rider.

[Robert Taylor]

Hey Robert, with our idea you wouldn't need to do so much work. You could sit back a bit more, watch some of the racing.

I'm sure you do a lot of your advice and adjustments for free. But like I've said before getting access to the kind of help you can offer is not easy. We want to ride WAAAA, WAAA. Look I'm breaking down. Just let us have a class in which it's all about the rider.

Im not against cost controlled classes ( and never have been ) but re-emphasise that the elite classes ( and I have no problem with the meaning of elite ) should not be too diluted. That maintains broad relevance to the other first world countries who run such classes and raises the level of set up skill of the riders who aspire to greater things offshore.
It would be a sad day that you cannot learn the effects of valving changes etc until you travel to another country. We dont need to wholly talk ourselves into third world status.
If a reasonable balance can ( ultimately ) be achieved with a production class that runs within a ( say ) superstock class then I am all for it.
Regards set up skills / training we ( CKT ) have several initiatives planned for through next year to help broaden the knowledge base of those who desire same.

[Shaun]

Im not against cost controlled classes ( and never have been ) but re-emphasise that the elite classes ( and I have no problem with the meaning of elite ) should not be too diluted.

AGREED- But times are a changing ME ME

It would be a sad day that you cannot learn the effects of valving changes etc until you travel to another country. We dont need to wholly talk ourselves into third world status.

PC shit mate, keep it to the news papers would ya! It is after all the buisness community that has TOLD us we are in a financual issue stage of life again---Ba hahahaha ME ME


If a reasonable balance can ( ultimately ) be achieved with a production class that runs within a ( say ) superstock class then I am all for it.

Fantastic, as the the serious riders will be coming to see you in 12 months or so ( Thanks Oyster and the STH @ the moment) for trick suspension to go into the SS class, and try and Smoke the boys. ME ME

Regards set up skills / training we ( CKT ) have several initiatives planned for through next year to help broaden the knowledge base of those who desire same.

-- Teach them what you can ME ME

[Mishy]

Exactly.

Stock GSXR600s haven't gotten a hell of a lot faster or slower over the last 3 years, and there's plenty of them floating around.

But right now the rules mean that they're not competitive. End of story.

Change the rules, reduce the cost, more guys go racing and the talent floats to the top regardless of whether it can afford to get past a $50K per season starting barrier... everyone except Mr Taylor and 'Mishy' (neither of whom race!) wins.

I did over 15 years of racing on lots of different machinery, and at a reasonbly high level, but I now put my time in helping a much younger, more talented rider. I'm at every national meeting, and I see the talent float to the top. Mostly that has meant 125, followed by 600SP. I can't say I've seen many super talented riders fail to get something going unless they lacked the drive to do so.

[crazy blanket]

Guys…I’ve been reading this thread for a bit of time now and although not directly affected as I live half way across the world from you all, I would still like to summarise my opinions by the following generalisations.

One thing is clear to me and that is the passion you guys have for your racing is on a par with us over here in Northern Ireland.

You also have a wealth of knowledge and experience from both sides of the track, be it racing or pit lane.

With all the comments provided from these different areas of expertise/enthusiasm, it is plain to see that as a consequence of one man’s initiative and foresight, there is enough support to enable this concept to fly.

With all initiatives and concepts there comes a time to ‘put up, or shut up’ I think this time is NOW guys.

You are fortunate to have someone in your midst who is prepared to stick their head above the parapet and take a chance. I know Shaun well enough to know he passionately believes in this concept from a perspective of providing something affordable for the masses in order to encourage folk who would probably never get the chance to race and therefore never find out how good they could really be because of the financial restrictions.

The debate on the rights/wrongs, feasibility/workability etc etc has to stop at some point and the thing needs to take flight in order for the REAL test to take place.

All I would suggest is this…..The time has come for ACTION…the plan is there, the layout is simple to follow, all interested parties only need to come forward with THEIR commitment and it will fly.

My personal opinion is that this concept, regardless of the pitfalls and the at times endless ‘point scoring’ on this thread, will take off and once in the air where the real problems and fine tuning can take place, will be a credit to you all and a realistic and affordable farm for fresh talent. Even a mad Scotsman with an equally mad passion for the roads can see this.

Good luck Shaun and to those of you, who have expressed interest, get behind this man and soak up some of his passion for your own good!

Good luck guys and keep ‘er lit!

John

[Tony.OK]

Guys…I’ve been reading this thread for a bit of time now and although not directly affected as I live half way across the world from you all, I would still like to summarise my opinions by the following generalisations.


Good luck guys and keep ‘er lit!

John

Well said that man....

[Robert Taylor]

Guys…I’ve been reading this thread for a bit of time now and although not directly affected as I live half way across the world from you all, I would still like to summarise my opinions by the following generalisations.

One thing is clear to me and that is the passion you guys have for your racing is on a par with us over here in Northern Ireland.

You also have a wealth of knowledge and experience from both sides of the track, be it racing or pit lane.

With all the comments provided from these different areas of expertise/enthusiasm, it is plain to see that as a consequence of one man’s initiative and foresight, there is enough support to enable this concept to fly.

With all initiatives and concepts there comes a time to ‘put up, or shut up’ I think this time is NOW guys.

You are fortunate to have someone in your midst who is prepared to stick their head above the parapet and take a chance. I know Shaun well enough to know he passionately believes in this concept from a perspective of providing something affordable for the masses in order to encourage folk who would probably never get the chance to race and therefore never find out how good they could really be because of the financial restrictions.

The debate on the rights/wrongs, feasibility/workability etc etc has to stop at some point and the thing needs to take flight in order for the REAL test to take place.

All I would suggest is this…..The time has come for ACTION…the plan is there, the layout is simple to follow, all interested parties only need to come forward with THEIR commitment and it will fly.

My personal opinion is that this concept, regardless of the pitfalls and the at times endless ‘point scoring’ on this thread, will take off and once in the air where the real problems and fine tuning can take place, will be a credit to you all and a realistic and affordable farm for fresh talent. Even a mad Scotsman with an equally mad passion for the roads can see this.

Good luck Shaun and to those of you, who have expressed interest, get behind this man and soak up some of his passion for your own good!

Good luck guys and keep ‘er lit!

John

Fair enough comments, it needs to be emphasised heavily that it is largely one man ( Shaun ) taking a huge financial risk here and as I ( personally )see it he is effectively ''subsidising'' the racing hopes of those who may subscribe. If it fails it is not those who have subscribed ( or commented )who will have to pick up the pieces.
Actions are so much more difficult than rhetoric. If this carries through then he is deserved of respect for having the intestinal fortitude to do so. ( where others have failed before )

[Shaun]

Fair enough comments, it needs to be emphasised heavily that it is largely one man ( Shaun ) taking a huge financial risk here and as I ( personally )see it he is effectively ''subsidising'' the racing hopes of those who may subscribe. If it fails it is not those who have subscribed ( or commented )who will have to pick up the pieces.
Actions are so much more difficult than rhetoric. If this carries through then he is deserved of respect for having the intestinal fortitude to do so. ( where others have failed before )

Thankyou Robert. I trully believe there is a way forward, even if we all sit around and cry about the ecomomy

[cowpoos]

even if we all sit around and cry about the ecomomy

No need too...journo's do plenty of that for us!! lol

[gixerracer]

Exactly.

Stock GSXR600s haven't gotten a hell of a lot faster or slower over the last 3 years, and there's plenty of them floating around.

But right now the rules mean that they're not competitive. End of story.

Change the rules, reduce the cost, more guys go racing and the talent floats to the top regardless of whether it can afford to get past a $50K per season starting barrier... everyone except Mr Taylor and 'Mishy' (neither of whom race!) wins.

What a load of crap if the bikes havent improved over the last htree years then they will be more than competitve. I won the 600 class Nationals on a K4-5 gsxr and the times done then would have probly still got top three last season. End of story. I have won a race a long time ago so I hope Im allowed a say
Buying a 04-05-60 bike is a great way to do it cheaper, bikes are cheap and the 2nd hand race bits are 30% of there normal retail price and if you are a good enough rider you will be more than competitvie.
I also finishd 2nd in 1997 and I think I was the only bike in the top 10 that had stock suspension sorry robert haha so if you wish to try hard you can compete I also had more crashes that year than any other. Proddie racing a great Idea and im all for it but dont destroy to top classes just because people cant be botherd cleanning there bikes and having a shave and trying to get the funds together to do it right most people dont need the after maerket shit anyway untill you get up to a seriopus speed on what you have[ sorry again bob

[jrandom]

Proddie racing a great Idea and im all for it but dont destroy to top classes

I don't think anyone wants to destroy the formula classes. Just an opportunity to go racing on stock bikes against other guys on stock bikes.

By the way, if yours was the only bike in the top ten with stock suspension, what does that say to you?

Apart from the fact that you're fast on a motorcycle, of course.