National level race classes

[steveyb]

"I watched some 4 wheeled racing this weekend on TV and I was amazed at the money on show. There were school kids racing $50,000 Formula Fords.....lots of 'em! Same for the late model production cars and Mini Challenge cars with youngsters somehow fronting up with lots of cash and lots of sponsors for what is a fairly boring spectacle."

So how does this happen? In large part the answer lies in TEAMS. There are teams that own and run the cars and then go looking for drivers that can pay for their seats in the teams. But this seat is a hell of a lot cheaper than that young fella and his Dad buying a car and trying to run it (although of course that happens, it tends to be less in the pointy end classes).

IMHO this is the very area where our sport is falling over. Why should all the new young, or even not so young riders, have to try and finance their own machines and try and maintain them when they don't need to. This is not to say they don't have to do the hard yards. They still have to find the money and train and learn to ride and race, but if we want to grow beyond where we are now we need more of the older buggers like me to buy a couple of bikes and set up teams to get the young fullas onto the bikes. That is how it is done in the UK, Australia, Europe and USA to a large degree. We are all going to revel in Fat Boy Shirrifs (well, maybe not so fat anymore) and Haydie winning the Superbike races this summer , but if they were not in a supported team they would in all likelihood not be racing.
These teams do NOT have to be only distributor backed teams you know. E.G. Triple R Racing Team.

"Somewhere at some point a place needs to be found for the older bikes. the amount of guys with 01 or 02 (let alone the million and one 90's) bikes and no where to race them is a bit stupid really. while its all good and well to have the best bikes and the best riders at nationals, which is right i agree, there needs to be some good racing and a decent field to make it worthwhile. and if that means letting in older worked 750's or toyed '00 superbikes then im all for it. in the end we all benefit from a better and larger race field size, so whats the harm??"

What is the NZSBK championships about?
Do y'all just want it to be the "NZ Club racing champs around NZ over the Summer" series??
NZSBK must be about the best riders and machines competing hard against each other.
That does not preclude riders who want to improve becoming involved. As Choppa says, if there was no one at the back there would be only 1 rider!! And ultimately, How do you get faster? By competing against faster riders and pushing your own limits.
The Post Classic guys need to modify the age limits every now and then to include these bikes and anyway, you can race all year round outside of the NZSBK if you want, at all the club racing in NZ. If you want to go racing, pack your gear and go. VMCC/MC Canturbury/Sthland MC over the winter, Pacific/AMCC/Tri-Series/BOTS over the spring/summer, done, plenty of racing. No excuses now!!

Enjoy

Steve

[Mishy]

one of the main reasons alotta guys dont run nationals i think is cost. talking 160 bucks for f3 compared to 60 for clubmans (dont forget transponder hire). im happy as hell to be lapped (every lap) but im not gonna pay 100 bucks more for the privelidge. and im gutted about it but id rather do all 3 rounds in clubmans than struggle through only 2 in f3.

pro twins is a good idea but its still not all that economic. obviously racing is never free (or even remotely cheap) but if we always expect new classes to need new bikes we will never have that many on the grids. Down south here the biggest grids are in streetstock and there ain't no new bikes out there. ok so i know its also the cheapest (and by a rather far too long way) but its not brand new 150 cbr's or 250 hyosungs. its cheap, easy to repair bikes, and no one really complains about them having a few years under their belt.

I hear you, and here lies part of the problem - getting club enthusiasts to step up to national level. I have always wondered where the fixation with entry costs comes from - it's such a small part of the total outlay when you look at it all. I guess it's just the perception of poorer value for money that turns people away, but it's a pretty close thing in the end. The older F3 bikes are all still eligible for F3, it just seems (in the north island at least) that they have all jumped to Post Classic now. That's cool, but I'm guessing that not many of them will come out in summer to race, and that's a pity. I kinda think that a lot of people won't go and race nationals if their machine is "uncompetitive". That's a pity, because it's awsome getting three days on the same track when it's hot n sticky, and frying your mind by going faster than you ever have - regardless of how fast that may be
I still think that (notwithatanding Shaun's current plans) Protwins is about as economical a class as we could expect at National level.
I think I've overdone my two cents worth . . . . . .

[Mishy]

. . . . . . . . . In large part the answer lies in TEAMS. There are teams that own and run the cars and then go looking for drivers that can pay for their seats in the teams. But this seat is a hell of a lot cheaper than that young fella and his Dad buying a car and trying to run it (although of course that happens, it tends to be less in the pointy end classes).

IMHO this is the very area where our sport is falling over. Why should all the new young, or even not so young riders, have to try and finance their own machines and try and maintain them when they don't need to.. . . . . . . . . . . . We are all going to revel in Fat Boy Shirrifs (well, maybe not so fat anymore) and Haydie winning the Superbike races this summer , but if they were not in a supported team they would in all likelihood not be racing.
These teams do NOT have to be only distributor backed teams you know. E.G. Triple R Racing Team.
Steve

Ha ha ! neither you nor I should be calling Craig fat ! But I do agree with you that getting guys that are out to pasture ( like you and I) to put something into getting younger guys onto bikes is important. Craig had private support early on in his career from Bob, and then from Chris, and this must have helped get him further along, but there is only so much money that your average Joe can spend on toys - and that's where it gets tough. I'm sure your Glen is better off for the support you give him, and so is Kenneth with Maart'ys help, but the step from that to a Superbike (or even a serious 600) campaign is pretty big. That's where we need to work to find people with the cash to put in - they just won't come looking for us !

[lostinflyz]

"
What is the NZSBK championships about?
Do y'all just want it to be the "NZ Club racing champs around NZ over the Summer" series??
NZSBK must be about the best riders and machines competing hard against each other.
That does not preclude riders who want to improve becoming involved. As Choppa says, if there was no one at the back there would be only 1 rider!! And ultimately, How do you get faster? By competing against faster riders and pushing your own limits.
The Post Classic guys need to modify the age limits every now and then to include these bikes and anyway, you can race all year round outside of the NZSBK if you want, at all the club racing in NZ. If you want to go racing, pack your gear and go. VMCC/MC Canturbury/Sthland MC over the winter, Pacific/AMCC/Tri-Series/BOTS over the spring/summer, done, plenty of racing. No excuses now!!

Enjoy

Steve

i get the drift about the superbike series but how much of it is ever that competitive and how much of that competition is locally raised fellers. ok so there are a number of guys up and coming and a few of the older gaurd but theres usually alotta aussies and the like, alotta them on the big time supported bikes. that being said i do enjoy the racing.

i just think nationals should be more than just based round NZ than just finding the 5,6,7 or 8 fastest bikes we can get and sticking whoever on them and then not seeing either of them again. i mean correct me if im wrong but it is kinda the nz club racing champs. its the only series in NZ that runs all the tracks (well nearly), and 80% of the feilds are guys on their own bikes with little or no sponsorship.

[wharfy]

One thing to remember is that NZ has a population that in most developed countries would only make a small city. In Spain or Italy a national championship meeting would get more spectators than the Allblacks against South Africa at Eden Park !!
The biggest crowds in NZ are at Wanganui and Paeroa and only a handful of the spectators would be able to name the current NZ champ in ANY class. They go because it is an EVENT and really exciting cause you are VERY close.

Most racers in NZ race because it is fun, a small number will have a chance at winning a national title and a VERY small number may have a chance of a career in racing.

I don't know how many people go to watch a National round at Puke or Taupo but I suspect it is a LOT less than Wanganui.

A lot more people race motocross, I don't know but suspect that they get similar sized crowds at nationals as road racing. I also suspect that the reason more people race MX is because you can actually buy a NEW RACE BIKE for a reasonable price. You don't have to buy a trail bike and spend a shit load of time and money trying to make it an MX bike.

Where can I get a NEW road race bike ? (apart from a Ducati 1098R at $60k )

Maybe if track days become popular enough the factories will start to make bikes for them.

[wharfy]

I know it is bad form to follow your own post but , one good thing about all those MX riders is they do make shit hot road racers if we can get them to cross over

[k14]

Where can I get a NEW road race bike ? (apart from a Ducati 1098R at $60k )

RS125, should be able to track a new one down for around $15k if you are keen

[wharfy]

RS125, should be able to track a new one down for around $15k if you are keen

Umm... It was a rhetorical question really, and I didn't think anyone would be able to produce one But if I wasn't over 95kg I might be tempted. I am under no illusions about my ability (I am WAY to old at 54 to be a contender, but am competitive if you know what I mean) and was thinking about a pro twin, the Hornet I race in clubmans has done 95,000+ Ks and wont last forever. I am pretty interested in the deal that shaun is promoting, especially now we know its in the 600 class.

[svr]

RS125, should be able to track a new one down for around $15k if you are keen

For similar money we could go a lot faster (and we'd all fit) on production 600s if the powers that be (and their advisors) let us...
Seems to me a class that would really suit NZers.

[vtec]

I agree... streetstock 600's. Road legal (or maybe control) tyres, standard suspension and exhausts, no powercommanders or anything. That would be a sweet class. The bikes would last longer not be as dangerous, but would require just as much skill to get around the track fast. Although it doesn't improve a rider's ability to setup a proper race bike.

[Robert Taylor]

I agree... streetstock 600's. Road legal (or maybe control) tyres, standard suspension and exhausts, no powercommanders or anything. That would be a sweet class. The bikes would last longer not be as dangerous, but would require just as much skill to get around the track fast. Although it doesn't improve a rider's ability to setup a proper race bike.

Not be as dangerous? Im sorry but you clearly you havent evidenced that stock suspension eats tyres with regularity. Yes you could have control tyres but they would be so wooden that thered be no grip and that would assist riders falling off the bikes a whole lot more readily.
But dont believe me, this is only a field that Im involved in 24 /7.
There are control classes that regulate costs eg Pro Twins. The two elite classes are just that and should for the most part be left alone. In those classes there are proper solutions for technical problems, rather than band aid ''solutions''. The class structure has been made up by experts that actually understand the issues!
But dont believe me, apparently I have an agenda...........

[Robert Taylor]

For similar money we could go a lot faster (and we'd all fit) on production 600s if the powers that be (and their advisors) let us...
Seems to me a class that would really suit NZers.

Incorrect on account of the tyre bill alone.

[Mishy]

For similar money we could go a lot faster (and we'd all fit) on production 600s if the powers that be (and their advisors) let us...
Seems to me a class that would really suit NZers.

you should check out what a season's worth of tyres for a 600 cost !
They just don't last that well with stock suspension, and (unfortunately) lead to a kind of false economy. We chewed 10's of thousands of dollasr of tyres in the last two years, and would have chewed a lot more than that with stock suspension. The only way to make the stock stuff work would be to regulate the tyre as well - no stickies. But that just wouldn,t be much fun, would it . . . . . .
You gotta give real race tyres real race suspension, and pretty much anything you can pick on the track is actually a thinly disguised race tyre, not a road tyre.

[Mishy]

Incorrect on account of the tyre bill alone.

damn ! you beat me too it !

BASTARD !

[FROSTY:Me]

. The two elite classes are just that and should for the most part be left alone. In those classes there are proper solutions for technical problems, rather than band aid ''solutions''. The class structure has been made up by experts that actually understand the issues!
But dont believe me, apparently I have an agenda...........

Robert and Mishy
OK then you two blokes have a fair few years experience
What do you guys suggest as the solution to the ever shrinking "elite" class feilds at national level then??
My idea was to get the grids filled back up by using retired 2/3/4 year old bikes --usually still fitted with all the suspension,exhaust fruit but maybee just needing a hotter cam. If you have 15 of them and 15 "elite" bikes on the grid,-Not competing for the same championship of course.
You will now say 2 championships means 2 sets of times to sort- The transponders sort all that out -so maybee its the prize money lol
Please dont go into that tripe about slow and speed difference--the 115% rule sorts that out and being honest --look back at lap records set and they arent dropping by 15% a season so the old bikes arent that much slower.

The point being that if the sport isn't atracting the spectator involvement that one and all keep saying "should" atttend then you need full grids so the clubs don't go broke running national level racing..