National level race classes

[scracha]

There are control classes that regulate costs eg Pro Twins. The two elite classes are just that and should for the most part be left alone.

I see where you're coming from Robert and agree that the top class should be left alone. Trouble is NZ simply can't support two "elite" classes, the population and money just isn't there. Now if there was an "R6 cup" or similar (same bike, exhaust, power commander, suspenders (ohlins, WP, whatever)) for the 600's as a step to jumping up to the one "elite" class then perhaps we'd get more riders involved, more interest in the sport and more sponsors. Sounds pretty much like what a little ginger man is doing at the moment so everyone should be happy.

Someone will shoot me for this but the costs in pro twins and post classics at club level have to be kept down. The (mostly silent)majority of riders out there have no illusions about being the next Rossi and simply do it for fun. Without them the race meetings would be very quiet and boring (did someone say Nationals?)

[Mishy]

My idea was to get the grids filled back up by using retired 2/3/4 year old bikes --usually still fitted with all the suspension,exhaust fruit but maybee just needing a hotter cam. If you have 15 of them and 15 "elite" bikes on the grid,-Not competing for the same championship of course.
You will now say 2 championships means 2 sets of times to sort- The transponders sort all that out -so maybee its the prize money lol
Please dont go into that tripe about slow and speed difference--the 115% rule sorts that out and being honest --look back at lap records set and they arent dropping by 15% a season so the old bikes arent that much slower.

The point being that if the sport isn't atracting the spectator involvement that one and all keep saying "should" atttend then you need full grids so the clubs don't go broke running national level racing..

Right now there is no reason why a guy (or girl) with a two or three year old 600cc bike shouldn't be out there, and making it WELL within the 115% cutoff, and being competitive relative to where they are in the field. Our kawasaki from last year only made about 4hp more at peak than a three year old model, and that's not a huge deal.
One big reality (often ignored at the moment) is that the bike is not what separates the top guys from the rest, and the rules in 600 don't make people "uncompetitive" because of the cost involved. Truth is that the top guys spend more mony on testing and tyres, and you can't regulate that out - they'll always do it, and this is the biggest difference in cost betweeen a front runner and a mid fielder.
I say save your cash - don't bother with the cams - and just get out and ride!

As far as spectators go, i believe that we are on the way up. there were bigger numbers out at last nationals, and even at winter series, and we all hope to see that continue

[Billy]

Right now there is no reason why a guy (or girl) with a two or three year old 600cc bike shouldn't be out there
I say save your cash - don't bother with the cams - and just get out and ride!

Thats the best bit of advice I have seen on this site.Far too often when working with the top tier teams have I seen them do nothing for 2-3 days but change the suspension constantly and in some cases get lost in the science of suspension set up,The best thing you can do is ride what youve got and adjust the suspension when and if you feel it needs it until you have a better understanding of how things work.Then when you upgrade to the good stuff at a later date you can give your supplier some reasonable feedback and get the results you desire quickly.All the suspension courses in the world wont help you.If you cant tell your technician what you require then youve got no show of getting the bike set up

[FROSTY:Me]

One big reality (often ignored at the moment) is that the bike is not what separates the top guys from the rest, and the rules in 600 don't make people "uncompetitive" because of the cost involved. Truth is that the top guys spend more mony on testing and tyres, and you can't regulate that out - they'll always do it, and this is the biggest difference in cost betweeen a front runner and a mid fielder.
I say save your cash - don't bother with the cams - and just get out and ride!

Couldn't agree more mate. BUT heres the thing the nature of our sport means we want to WIN or at least stand a shit show in hell of winning.
I'm not saying there aren't a lot of guys who are happy just being there and competing and I say bloody fantastic for them. AND there arent guys who do a season on an older bike as a learning curve.
But most of us want a shit show in hell of winning.
--Hey what about a simple +3 class --still 600's and 1000's but must be 3 years old?

[wharfy]

I agree.....no, I really do.
yes, I know this is KB. no-one is supposed to share the same opinion right? haha
yes, the older bike classes best kept for club racing. thats fine by me. bike racing needs to be built from the club level up anyhoo

Club racing is alive and well if the Vic club winter series is anything to go by. On more than one occasion the superbike grid was over subscribed and the no-qualifiers had the option of making my clubmans class even more interesting. A few clubmans riders also progressed to suberbikes during the series. The street stock class was chocker as well, in fact most classes had full grids.

Given our small population I think we will have to accept that our elite class is always going to have a small number of riders at the pointy end - regardless of how level the playing field is. BUT I think we need to have some "level playing field" classes to identify those riders who could be at the pointy end given a chance. Also somewhere for people with modest ambitions and limited budgets to play.

Why are there so few pro twins racers ?

[scracha]

Why are there so few pro twins racers ?

Still kinda a new class. A lot of the existing SV650 race bikes had different front ends fitted so am guessing they wanted to stay as competitive F3 bikes (and no so competitive F2 bikes). It will get bigger. There's a fair few riders on $hite old 400's that will be jumping onto pro twins and perhaps some on F2 bikes that have got sick of spending money on tyres.

[slowpoke]

Right now there is no reason why a guy (or girl) with a two or three year old 600cc bike shouldn't be out there, and making it WELL within the 115% cutoff, and being competitive relative to where they are in the field. Our kawasaki from last year only made about 4hp more at peak than a three year old model, and that's not a huge deal.
One big reality (often ignored at the moment) is that the bike is not what separates the top guys from the rest, and the rules in 600 don't make people "uncompetitive" because of the cost involved. Truth is that the top guys spend more mony on testing and tyres, and you can't regulate that out - they'll always do it, and this is the biggest difference in cost betweeen a front runner and a mid fielder.
I say save your cash - don't bother with the cams - and just get out and ride!

Exactly! Craig Shirriff's, Choppa, Johnny Burkhart, Jay Lawrence, Nick Cole, Sam Smith (in no particular order) could and/or have won a VMCC Superbike race on their 600's. They could/have done so because they are better riders not because they have the fastest machines.

Same goes for the incredible times Craig was setting on a very undeveloped machine at the last Vic Club round. As I understand it it had some flash suspenders and a pipe and that was about it. For a machine that cost half that of a National level Superbike he was 2sec/lap quicker than everyone....because he's that good, not because the bike cost megabucks. So what's to stop someone else doing the same? You or I could put the bike together in an afternoon.

The problem is finding someone good enough to ride it, not finding or funding a good enough bike.

Couldn't agree more mate. BUT heres the thing the nature of our sport means we want to WIN or at least stand a shit show in hell of winning.
I'm not saying there aren't a lot of guys who are happy just being there and competing and I say bloody fantastic for them. AND there arent guys who do a season on an older bike as a learning curve.
But most of us want a shit show in hell of winning.
--Hey what about a simple +3 class --still 600's and 1000's but must be 3 years old?

So what's the scoop, if you can't win you don't wanna play anymore? Tell that to 90% of the 36 attempted qualifiers at the last Vic Club Superbike round and you'd be laughed outta the pits. FFS half the Superbike field (prolly more) were on 600's and theoretically uncompetitive! I reckon most of us race ourselves as much as we race other people. I for one have have a time in mind that I'm determined to match if not beat rather than a finishing position, which would still be well down the finishing order.

Sorry mate, but this whole "gotta win or it's not worth turning up" just doesn't sit right with me.

The Nats are a golden opportunity to learn from the very best in NZ if not Australasia...where else would you get 2 track days back to back with Stroud, Bugden, Shirriffs, Lawrence, Smith, Charlett etc. I don't care what the entry fee is it's fuggin' good value to be able to follow these guys around both on track and off. How else do you learn this stuff? If you are remotely competitive at the club level and have any racing ambitions whatsoever you are a fool if you don't turn up.

[FROSTY:Me]

But theres the rub--35 or more entrys at club level and scratchin for 15 at national level.
So it aint a case of don't fix what aint broke. --It is broken
Maybee theres another way to breath life into the elete classes
Me Im happy in F3 and planning now for the 09/10 nats --

[svr]

Incorrect on account of the tyre bill alone.

Easy fix: 1 set per meeting.

[k14]

Easy fix: 1 set per meeting.

Yeah well in that case double the possible tyre bill for crash damage.

[Mishy]

Easy fix: 1 set per meeting.

That's the rule for Pro Twins, and Pro Twins is the class designed to most limit cost. Why apply that to 600SP ? We already have a new class which has rules designed to make it apealing, afordable, and easy to get into, so why mess with the other classes out there ? look at the numbers in 600SP and tell me that's not doing o.k

[slowpoke]

Going by the large numbers at this seasons club rounds it's going to be interesting just how many entrants we see front up for the Nationals. Fingers crossed we see a marked increase there too.

Our employment conditions have changed markedly since the glory days of proddie racing so maybe it's nothing to do with bikes and racing costs at all. Factor in reduced effective wages, increased per capita borrowings, that awkward bit of water separating the Island's and nowadays it becomes a big ask to take a few days off work to go racing on the other island. We aren't racing in the same economic/employment environment so maybe comparing the glory days of old to now just isn't a valid comparison.

Sponsors are also operating in a different environment with maximum return required for every dollar spent. Effectively, if you aren't a hero then you are zero. At the moment bike racing is effectively zero which makes it very difficult to increase you profile and become a hero "brand" for potential sponsors and promotors of our sport.

I don't think it's quite as simple as reducing actual racing costs. The Pro-Twin class is cheap as chips yet isn't exactly bursting at the seams.

[Mishy]

Going by the large numbers at this seasons club rounds it's going to be interesting just how many entrants we see front up for the Nationals. Fingers crossed we see a marked increase there too.

Our employment conditions have changed markedly since the glory days of proddie racing so maybe it's nothing to do with bikes and racing costs at all. Factor in reduced effective wages, increased per capita borrowings, that awkward bit of water separating the Island's and nowadays it becomes a big ask to take a few days off work to go racing on the other island. We aren't racing in the same economic/employment environment so maybe comparing the glory days of old to now just isn't a valid comparison.

Sponsors are also operating in a different environment with maximum return required for every dollar spent. Effectively, if you aren't a hero then you are zero. At the moment bike racing is effectively zero which makes it very difficult to increase you profile and become a hero "brand" for potential sponsors and promotors of our sport.

I don't think it's quite as simple as reducing actual racing costs. The Pro-Twin class is cheap as chips yet isn't exactly bursting at the seams.

Extremely insightful, and hard to disagree with. I began racing in the early 90's and I'm pretty sure my wage got me a lot more racing then.
Whatever way you look at it, the higher level you want to compete at, the more it costs - exponetialy ! Going from midfield in any class and trying to compete at the front will probably double (or more) the cost involved.

[Robert Taylor]

I see where you're coming from Robert and agree that the top class should be left alone. Trouble is NZ simply can't support two "elite" classes, the population and money just isn't there. Now if there was an "R6 cup" or similar (same bike, exhaust, power commander, suspenders (ohlins, WP, whatever)) for the 600's as a step to jumping up to the one "elite" class then perhaps we'd get more riders involved, more interest in the sport and more sponsors. Sounds pretty much like what a little ginger man is doing at the moment so everyone should be happy.

Someone will shoot me for this but the costs in pro twins and post classics at club level have to be kept down. The (mostly silent)majority of riders out there have no illusions about being the next Rossi and simply do it for fun. Without them the race meetings would be very quiet and boring (did someone say Nationals?)

Essentially as per overseas Superstock rules. No internal engine mods but allow as you say exhaust and aftermarket ECU and decent suspenders that wont burn the tyres up repeatedly and allow tyres with decent levels of grip that wont land the rider on his / her head with too much regularity.

[Robert Taylor]

Right now there is no reason why a guy (or girl) with a two or three year old 600cc bike shouldn't be out there, and making it WELL within the 115% cutoff, and being competitive relative to where they are in the field. Our kawasaki from last year only made about 4hp more at peak than a three year old model, and that's not a huge deal.
One big reality (often ignored at the moment) is that the bike is not what separates the top guys from the rest, and the rules in 600 don't make people "uncompetitive" because of the cost involved. Truth is that the top guys spend more mony on testing and tyres, and you can't regulate that out - they'll always do it, and this is the biggest difference in cost betweeen a front runner and a mid fielder.
I say save your cash - don't bother with the cams - and just get out and ride!

As far as spectators go, i believe that we are on the way up. there were bigger numbers out at last nationals, and even at winter series, and we all hope to see that continue

Its also rather important that those guys running older bikes realise ( somewhat abundantly ) that you have to throw certain components at them due to stress hours / fatigue otherwise the cost saving argument gets very academic very quickly.