National level race classes

[FROSTY:Me]

Ok guys I think the whole point of this discussion has been totally overlooked.
In a nutshell -whats needed to get the sort of grid fullness that PMCC meetings attract at the nationals?
I was just floating an idea -allowing a second tier of racers on the grid with lower cost bikes.
Again really how long will the clubs be able to continue running national meetings if they dont have spectator support--they don't in most cases and they don't have decent entry levels to cover the costs of running a national level meeting.
In a nutshell guys isn't it a matter of survival ?

[Robert Taylor]

Just to clarify this Robert So you are saying that we in NZ race in temperatures people in the northern hemasphere dont race in.
Temperatures in Taupo diddn't actually get cold did they??

YES! And Shaun has already clarified the Taupo situation very well.

[Robert Taylor]

Im yet to see a an average rider fit ohlins/WP/Penske get it setup for him or her and go 2 - 3 seconds faster around a track.


Shaun did some work on my stock suspension (Few clicks this way and that way) and I didnt get much faster but got better feedback from the bike and defintly better tyre wear........


Now lets get back on topic about frosty's post.

Actually over stock 1 to up to 3 seconds per lap faster would be pretty close to the reality. By fitting well sorted shock and cartridges.

[Robert Taylor]

er..... can I say I've adjusted my suspension 3 times in the last 20 years.......
Still set lap records, still slid everywhere.......

As for riding to the limit on standard gear, I used to get off my GSX1229 with good gear and race tyres, and onto my X5 200cc on ching shin tyres and the worst suspension on the world, and go full tit around Baypark on cold tyres. You learnt to ride hard to the limitations of your gear. Never crashed the phucker either, but had the thing at 30 degree sideways all the time!!
Eh Sidecar Bob!!

Having old standard shit gear may mean you can ride it over its intended limits, but it does hone your skills too!!! And best bit is, its BLOODY FUN!!

Just imagine then how much faster you could go with high end shock absorbers and lots of testing to develop the settings. Exactly what Shaun Harris and I were doing years ago and slaughtering the opposition. In my book you make the winning margin as big as possible. Thats the aim of any technician and racer trying to win a championship, over and above the enjoyment of racing.

[Robert Taylor]

Similarly, i cant understand why someone spends 40k plus on a 1098 or any other leading brand of superbike & gets the forks re valved the following week.
Are Ducati, or any other top end manufacturer that far off the mark that an average road rider finds a bike of that calibre flawed? or do people need to do this more to gain false confidence in their abilities, & can they actually tell the difference before & after?
A guy was telling me a while back that he needed to have the forks on his fireblade re valved, i asked him what grade of oil he had in them & he had no idea.

Simple ( and very very candidly ), on the 1098 the Italian test riders really dropped the ball with the settings. They dictated the settings, despite Ohlins technicians protesting that they werent good enough, especially in terms of pitch control. Similarly with the rear link ratio on that bike, its a real balls up.
Here in NZ we have a much higher ratio of bumpy roads and that exposes the limitations of those settings very very quickly.
Having revalved double digit numbers of these, ridden them myself ( and Id be slower on a track than Frosty! ) I can attest that the difference is VERY noticeable, also totally confirmed by my customers.
If I cannot make a difference and dont provide bang for buck then why ( for example ) would I deserve to be in business?????????????
I dont accept your last example, most road riders and racers that I work with also dont know what grade of oil is installed in their forks. For your information modern cartridge forks no longer rely on oil viscosity as a tuning parameter, except within a very narrow range that will affect the clicker positions. Valving/ revalving does that and accomplished road riders and racers very definitely CAN tell the difference. Grotty damper rod forks such as in SV650 etc do indeed still rely on oil viscosity as a huge tuning parameter
But dont trust my own judgement on this, I only work at this very coalface every day of the week. ( Excuse my cynicism )
Read Choppas post, he can tell the difference that well sorted cartridges make. As would any other racer that knows this only too damn well and is prepared to beat his head against a sea of ''doubting thomases'' that inhabit forums ( again please excuse my cynicism )
I find that the biggest disbelievers or those that are in denial are those that have never experienced the before and after of a thoroughly comprehensive suspension upgrade. You have a right to be a skeptic but sometimes people are actually telling the truth.................

[Robert Taylor]

Originally Posted by Robert Taylor
I can well remember my Swedish namesake Rob looking at his computer screen at three very distinctingly different damping curves and shaking his head in disbelief because his assigned rider ( Haga ) could not tell / feel the difference between any of them.



Perhaps they need me as a test rider for them

I remember being able to tell my technician exactually what was going on, ( and he was very impressed I seem to recall) Even before the Dyno arrived

Okay, ''ShockingShaun'' or ''ShocktestShaun'' A little bit kinder than ''Chainsaw Harris'' a few years back after comprehensively checking the rev limiter calibration on Manfields pit straight every lap of the ( part ) endurance race you did! Dididididididididididididi....kaboom

[sidecar bob]

Simple ( and very very candidly ), on the 1098 the Italian test riders really dropped the ball with the settings. They dictated the settings, despite Ohlins technicians protesting that they werent good enough, especially in terms of pitch control. Similarly with the rear link ratio on that bike, its a real balls up.
Here in NZ we have a much higher ratio of bumpy roads and that exposes the limitations of those settings very very quickly.
Having revalved double digit numbers of these, ridden them myself ( and Id be slower on a track than Frosty! ) I can attest that the difference is VERY noticeable, also totally confirmed by my customers.
If I cannot make a difference and dont provide bang for buck then why ( for example ) would I deserve to be in business?????????????
I dont accept your last example, most road riders and racers that I work with also dont know what grade of oil is installed in their forks. For your information modern cartridge forks no longer rely on oil viscosity as a tuning parameter, except within a very narrow range that will affect the clicker positions. Valving/ revalving does that and accomplished road riders and racers very definitely CAN tell the difference. Grotty damper rod forks such as in SV650 etc do indeed still rely on oil viscosity as a huge tuning parameter
But dont trust my own judgement on this, I only work at this very coalface every day of the week. ( Excuse my cynicism )
Read Choppas post, he can tell the difference that well sorted cartridges make. As would any other racer that knows this only too damn well and is prepared to beat his head against a sea of ''doubting thomases'' that inhabit forums ( again please excuse my cynicism )
I find that the biggest disbelievers or those that are in denial are those that have never experienced the before and after of a thoroughly comprehensive suspension upgrade. You have a right to be a skeptic but sometimes people are actually telling the truth.................

Thank you for a very informative & thorough reply as usual Robert.
I wasnt skeptical of your art, but did really wonder about the situation, paticularly with regard to the 1098, as i have heard of a few being done now.
It seems they actually are off the mark.
Quite sad that in 2008 such a respected manufacturer with a long racing pedigree can still miss the boat.
I in no way infered that you didnt make a difference or provide bang for buck, there is absolutely no doubt in the motorcycling community whatsoever that you do, and are a well respected, generous contributor to motorcycling as a whole.
Im sure CHOPPA & the likes can tell the difference, but i was wondering more about average road riders riding at average road speeds being able to tell the difference.
It was you that raised the point that Haga couldnt tell the difference between three vastly different damping curves, not me, I merely wondered how many other folk couldnt tell the difference either.
Your emotion & passion for this topic are fantastic & while admirable, are only equalled by Brian Tamaki's passion for the Destiny Church, & it draws a very similar response if someone APPEARS to be a disbeilever.
As a specalist & leading authority myself for a top end product, for over fifteen years, i can fully relate to where you are coming from & the emotion it produces if the product is called into question. My attitude when faced with that attitude now is "oh well, another idiot, that due to their own ignorance, will never enjoy the benifits of this awesome quality product" Likewise, i will never be forced to deal with the same idiot as a client, is saves a lot of angst at both ends.

[cowpoos]

Incorrect on account of the tyre bill alone.

I would support a production based superbike class that runs the current rules...except...a control tyre...with only one set for the whole meeting. qualifying and races.

It would make a large variety of bike compeditive for many different atributes!! and challange racers skill,judgment and setup skills more...than how much it would cost to build there bikes..

any production series which doesn't allow suspension modification away form factory internals, rear shocks is a crock of shit...all it does is promote crashes...tyre expense...and teach people how to ride bad handling unbalanced bikes craply...

And for the people that argue that it will improve your riding....piss off it will...back in the old days when tyres were as shit as suspension..maybe...these days tyres are so grippy...that road bias suspesion IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

[Robert Taylor]

Exactly.
Surely the problem is that we for some reason we are not attracting / producing decent numbers of young riders who can road race motorcycles at their performance limit (even if that is relatively low) i.e. the fundamental skill set of road racing, which has to be learnt early.
It's of no use to say `well, you kids just need to work harder and save up so you can ride technically superior equipment', that's just reducing the talent available.

If we could attract more Choppas and Johnie ''Berserkharts'' from MX that would be a positive. These guys have been a very welcome addition to the sport.
For the record I personally help a lot of people with set up advice at all levels irrespective of level of equipment and do not engage ( at all ) in a hard sell approach. If people ask, I help and its not ''you need to buy my suspension''. In fact many lessons that we have learnt by working with top echelon equipment we have been able to apply to everyday suspension setting techniques, at low or no cost to the end user. FACT. There is actually a level of benefit to everyone.

[Robert Taylor]

Ok guys I think the whole point of this discussion has been totally overlooked.
In a nutshell -whats needed to get the sort of grid fullness that PMCC meetings attract at the nationals?
I was just floating an idea -allowing a second tier of racers on the grid with lower cost bikes.
Again really how long will the clubs be able to continue running national meetings if they dont have spectator support--they don't in most cases and they don't have decent entry levels to cover the costs of running a national level meeting.
In a nutshell guys isn't it a matter of survival ?

Broadly, yes, yes, yes and yes. You just have to be mindful of the negative technical issues that will occur.

[cowpoos]

How many fairings, footpeg brackets etc to go with that? The tyres would have to be very ''wooden'' to last and that inevtably means less grip, LESS RIDER FEEL and a greater preponderance for crashing. So bang goes an oversimplistic cost argument.

not neccicarilly...Andrew and myself had an discusion, not that long ago.
He was more than comfortable with running one set of tyres for qualifiing and every race in a weekend. and I agree...good suspension provides the feel required to ride hard on any tyres its set up for...bad suspension proveds bugger all for any tyres!!

[Billy]

any production series which doesn't allow suspension modification away form factory internals, rear shocks is a crock of shit...all it does is promote crashes...tyre expense...and teach people how to ride bad handling unbalanced bikes craply...

And for the people that argue that it will improve your riding....piss off it will...back in the old days when tyres were as shit as suspension..maybe...these days tyres are so grippy...that road bias suspesion IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!![/QUOTE]

So this being the case,Explain to me in simple english.Why is it then that it has taken the TOP pro twins riders over a year to better the times achieved by the top 250 proddy riders back as far as 1991 on their shitty tyres and stock suspension and which class did international riders of the calibre of Aaron Slight,Andrew Stroud,Brian Bernard,Simon Crafar,Chris Haldane,Dave Cole ....... learn their racecraft in and the BASICS of suspension set up ???

[JayRacer37]

Lesser equipment and more 'wooden' or not like bubble gum tyres wont necessarily result in more crashes, nor will stock suspension.

It comes down to the rider and that person having an understand of what the bike is doing. Just because better tyres offer more grip, doesn't mean riders are not going to be pushing them to the limits just as hard as not so great tyres.

I am a bit lost as to why everyone has this idea that Stock suspension and Crap tyres instantly mean crashes! and I am yet to ever anyone show statistics of this.

One case where it seemed very much the opposite was when Jay got the new zx6r and raced and did very well at taupo on stock suspenders yet the next round after receiving the fancy equipment he crashed twice in one day, complaining of no feel what so ever and inconsistent grip.

Im not saying you can go as fast on lesser equipment, but i don't believe it is a safety issue. Tyre wear also it is quite evident that better equipment helps out.

at the end of the day it is up to the rider to learn and understand what level of grip is available and to work with what they have. If everyone is in the same boat, then it can make very interesting racing.

To expand a bit further on those days,

In taupo we got one qual session in the dry(ish) and one race in the wet(ish). I used the stock, RaceAttack Road' that I had run the bike in on for both these races, and we fitted the TTX shock after the qaul, from memory.

I think I lapped faster in that damp race than I did in qualifying, and I was comfortable to go 2sec a lap faster than anyone else that didn't crash was prepared to go. And it was easy, I had great feel from the rear end, and didn't push the front hard. The road comp tyres also meant temp was less of an issue.

And round two, we fitted the cartridges in the morning, and also soft comp tyres. This was before we were as aware of the temprature borders for the soft compound, something we learned quickly. My highside early on was pushing harder than I should have been (I had just passed into the lead) and was a bit dumb. The second crash was due to a brain malfunction, and a forget of the lwer temprature (the sun had just come off that part o the track. I was the first to crash in the spot, but...4, 5, 6(?) others did it in the same race, one three times.

Really, I would never, ever say that stock suspension can even come close to what Ohlins and other can provide. In as much as control and predictablity its a huge advantage. Once we figured the temp thing out, we got a handle on the bike and its....limitations? and i'm proud to say that the two crashes that day were the only one's I had on that bike, we finished #3 NZ without another fall which was just great.

I also agree with all of Robert's points. Sure we could race on some road tyres and stock suspension, and the bikes would cost marginally less to prepare. But the crash bill would eevitably be higher, and the real costs of an NZ season would be the same. This is the travel and accomdation...this can easy cost the same as preping a bike.

I disagree with your outlook of "It comes down to the rider and that person having an understand of what the bike is doing. Just because better tyres offer more grip, doesn't mean riders are not going to be pushing them to the limits just as hard as not so great tyres". Although the better riders will have more fee and less chance of crashing, the crashes will still be more abundant, because after five race laps, the stock suspenison and wood tyres become hugely unpredictable, and something that was safe one lap ago will now lead you to pitfall. The most important thing in keeping a bike upright at the head of a national class is feel, if you take that away from us I hope your bringing more ambulances.

To be honest, I would love to see NZ racing more on a par with international series. Wouldn't it be great to do a NZ 600SP champoinship, and then be able to take that bike to Aus and know your at the same level...at the moment you can't, another reason it's hard to get an NZ'er over there. Whats a few K more to set up a 600, your putting way more that that in again when you take it to a track, and it would give you a season more to get used to the faster, more peaky, 'racebike' feel of a bike tuned like this. And a 600 without this extra cost is still going to be in the region of competitive to anyone doing it for fun/coming up from club level/taking it to the big boys.

Jay

[Shaun]

I would support a production based superbike class that runs the current rules...except...a control tyre...with only one set for the whole meeting. qualifying and races.

It would make a large variety of bike compeditive for many different atributes!! and challange racers skill,judgment and setup skills more...than how much it would cost to build there bikes..



And for the people that argue that it will improve your riding....piss off it will...back in the old days when tyres were as shit as suspension..maybe...these days tyres are so grippy...that road bias suspesion IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

Sorry to say this Cowpoos, But you are only an arm chair learner!

I QUOTE YOU

"any production series which doesn't allow suspension modification away form factory internals, rear shocks is a crock of shit...all it does is promote crashes...tyre expense...and teach people how to ride bad handling unbalanced bikes craply..."

This is a total bollocks LISTEN to me post once again, you are learning about suspension and how it works a ok,but this attitude needs to change mate, you have been on here for ever, and a lot of people read what you say, so go and read what you have said about a 1set of tyres SB class in NZ, and then re read your post that I have quoted above

Get it together man, or carry on being wrong, your choice

[Shaun]

I would support a production based superbike class that runs the current rules...except...a control tyre...with only one set for the whole meeting. qualifying and races.

It would make a large variety of bike compeditive for many different atributes!! and challange racers skill,judgment and setup skills more...than how much it would cost to build there bikes..

any production series which doesn't allow suspension modification away form factory internals, rear shocks is a crock of shit...all it does is promote crashes...tyre expense...and teach people how to ride bad handling unbalanced bikes craply...

And for the people that argue that it will improve your riding....piss off it will...back in the old days when tyres were as shit as suspension..maybe...these days tyres are so grippy...that road bias suspesion IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

Andrew Stroud won races in New Zealand 2 years ago on standard GSXR 600 shock ( Ok it was wet)