All those in favour of standard Superbikes?

[sidecar bob]

But then as you run the harder compounds and lower quality and feel tyres you take away the ability of the rider to feel to the limit so costs skyrocket in crash repairs.

I come from an era of 230kg racebikes with 120hp on 130 section tyres, (Katana 1100s) we rode to the limitations of the equipment & bins were no more frequent than today.

[k14]

A Formula Xtreme 600 would be awesome, not only a cheap production class but it would leave the door open for casual road riders to come out and have a play and get a feeling for how competitive they are which equals even more people at the track which is what we want to achieve.

Um if Jay was meaning a formula xtreme class as that in the states then it is further from production than current supersport. As in full aftermarket everything, carbon fibre fairings, magnesium wheels, fully up spec'd motor (I think you get the drift).

This thread seems to keep going round in circles, but I would love a solution to be had. On one hand I want to move up from 125's, but on the other hand I don't know what to do. Pro twin is a good class but hardly a step up, racing a commuter bike that is pretty similar weight to a 600 isn't that appealing and then going to a 600 is just too financially prohibitive. I'd need to sell my 125 and then probably raise a bit more $$ to be able to get out there. It's a hard call, but I think I am nearing the end of my 125 racing. Although that idea seems to change depending on which way the wind blows.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Um if Jay was meaning a formula xtreme class as that in the states then it is further from production than current supersport. As in full aftermarket everything, carbon fibre fairings, magnesium wheels, fully up spec'd motor (I think you get the drift).

Oh right, yeah I probably mis-read that

[JayRacer37]

I would love to have someone show some hard evidence of this or statistics to back it up. Many people have this belief, but I am yet to hear of someone blaming stock suspension or 'hard compound' for their crash. At the end of the day, not matter what your on, it comes back to the fella on top pulling the levers and their understanding of the limit and how close they are prepared to get to that limit.

Yamaha Virgin Mobile R6 cup in 2006. R6's with Perelli Diablo Sport touring/fast road tyres. No crashes in first 5 laps, half the feild in the last two...

[JayRacer37]

I come from an era of 230kg racebikes with 120hp on 130 section tyres, (Katana 1100s) we rode to the limitations of the equipment & bins were no more frequent than today.

But the bikes were designed around tyres like that. Chassis stifness was less, so feel came from that. On todays bikes, they are designed around full race tyres, and without that level of grip, they don't give you much feedback. Ive ridden bikes like you describe (BMW K100 racer, 120hp, 140 rear tyre, 250kg) and it was great fun as the weight gave momentum and took away the 'snapiness' of todays bikes, chassis geometry was more relaxed and easier to push the limit without ending up on the ground, and the less refined chassis gave felx and feel, matching the lower grip.

Also, 'today' we are racing on "race applicable tyres". If what is being talked about happens, and we DO get lowered tyres/sups, that is when crashes will rise, IMO.

[JayRacer37]

Sorry to go on again

The point i'm trying to put across is that today, as classes are, the bikes are in BALANCE. Tyres, race suspension and chassis technology match each other - like the Katana's Sidecar Bob refer's to.

If we dropped to stock/lower quality suspension, and then the tyres to allow the tyres to last with the lowered refinement of suspension, suddenly the CHASSIS has much more ability than either of the other MAJOR components. To me, thats when the danger/risk starts.

[steveyb]

This thread seems to keep going round in circles, but I would love a solution to be had. On one hand I want to move up from 125's, but on the other hand I don't know what to do. Pro twin is a good class but hardly a step up, racing a commuter bike that is pretty similar weight to a 600 isn't that appealing and then going to a 600 is just too financially prohibitive. I'd need to sell my 125 and then probably raise a bit more $$ to be able to get out there. It's a hard call, but I think I am nearing the end of my 125 racing. Although that idea seems to change depending on which way the wind blows.

Well Kirkus, of course we used to have the class just waiting for you, 250GP.
But now it is gone.
So sad.
But still great fun at club racing to carve up the bigger bikes,
Ay Sketchy??
Ah well, onwards and upwards.
Steve

[k14]

Well Kirkus, of course we used to have the class just waiting for you, 250GP.
But now it is gone.
So sad.
But still great fun at club racing to carve up the bigger bikes,
Ay Sketchy??
Ah well, onwards and upwards.
Steve

Yeah exactly, my weight and height disadvantage would be minimal on a 250 and I'd love for the class to still be strong, but them's the breaks! I'll probably just keep on the 125 till they go the way of the dodo too!

[codgyoleracer]

[QUOTE=Robert Taylor;1818068]

Actually I havent said I disagree with a closer to production class. But it is clear that many that post do not actually have a full understanding of the issues.
I get on well with Glenn and know that he wont take my comments with any malice, but I still stick by what I have said ( and think quoting the old USSR comparison injected a bit of fun, Glenn responded in kind ). As I also stated its a democracy, Ive stated my opinions and so have others.

I think the three of us fully understand the advantages of being a capitalist in this "free" world. Although the word "free" does not sit well with the theory........ :-)

[Mishy]

[QUOTE=codgyoleracer;1819126]

I think the three of us fully understand the advantages of being a capitalist in this "free" world. Although the word "free" does not sit well with the theory........ :-)

"free" from some things, slaves to others !

[Mishy]

Sorry to go on again

The point i'm trying to put across is that today, as classes are, the bikes are in BALANCE. Tyres, race suspension and chassis technology match each other - like the Katana's Sidecar Bob refer's to.

If we dropped to stock/lower quality suspension, and then the tyres to allow the tyres to last with the lowered refinement of suspension, suddenly the CHASSIS has much more ability than either of the other MAJOR components. To me, thats when the danger/risk starts.

A point to back up Jay - many of our top young racers ride everything from classic's, to post classic's, to GP bikes, to modern sports bikes, and all in the same year. In jays case that would include K series BMW, late 80's GSXR1100, 125 and 250 GP bkes and a whole bunch of other stuff. Interestingly, these younger guys are probably better equiped to tell the rest of us how different modern race bikes are to the older machines, because they've raced em all, and most of us haven't.

[sidecar bob]

A point to back up Jay - many of our top young racers ride everything from classic's, to post classic's, to GP bikes, to modern sports bikes, and all in the same year. In jays case that would include K series BMW, late 80's GSXR1100, 125 and 250 GP bkes and a whole bunch of other stuff. Interestingly, these younger guys are probably better equiped to tell the rest of us how different modern race bikes are to the older machines, because they've raced em all, and most of us haven't.

At 42 i ride the following bikes & often all in the space of three weeks. RSV1000, RS125(Aprilia), Katana 1100, BMW R100rs, YZ426, classic Triumph sidecar, Modern Suzuki sidecar, Its not just the young guys that can get the best out of very different stuff.

[Cleve]

Let's not be silly here. Instead of trying to reduce costs all the time, lets let the rules go a bit. We go racing to race fast bikes, with the best parts! Its going to be expensive to do a season weather you are allowed a dead stock bike or a completly over the top one - remember without a deal it is 17k to buy a new bike, then 20k (to be compeditive) worth of tyres, then factor in any crashes or damage, and regular mantanence you have to do. AfterNow double the above for a two bike assult. After that you will need however much it will cost you to live in holiday parks/motels for at least three weeks, probably four by the end of the season, and travel to the rounds including almost a grand of ferries...whats some more costs making the bike faster? Having bikes with higher abilities will also let those riders with higher abilities shine. Why can't we have fun making the bikes as great as they can be...taking what you have and improving it is part of the challenge - look at Glen Williams ever developing SV. His hard work makes it better and better, and he is always trying new things, trying to make advances. Without that mentality you wouldn't have (and now I sound all cliche, but its true) creations like the Britten.

SO, I propose we leave 600SP alone as it is, and then have running parellel a Formula Xtreme 600 class...although noone would enter it would be a drool-fest looking at REALLY REALLY nice 600's in the pits...and wouldn't any racer want to have go on one of these???

Good points Jay. I fail to see the logic of some others on here in "saving money" by not having good suspension, when as you say quite correctly, the cost relative to a whole season is small and you will probably save money anyway on tyres, less crashes etc (and go faster and therefore have more fun)!

I like the idea of Superstock style rules for our F1 and F2 (for want of a better term), but for older bikes to Xtreme'd (for want of a better word) and run conjointly, as in PT/F3.
eg 1-2 year old 600's and 1000's with minimum modification racing against older 600's and 1000's with more modification allowed.

[slowpoke]

I like the idea of Superstock style rules for our F1 and F2 (for want of a better term), but for older bikes to Xtreme'd (for want of a better word) and run conjointly, as in PT/F3.
eg 1-2 year old 600's and 1000's with minimum modification racing against older 600's and 1000's with more modification allowed.

This sounds very much like what we are actually going to end up with.

I spoke to the Road Racing Commissioner prior to buying my new/old bike as I'd heard that updated rules were going to limit machine development in the future. I was worried that a modified Superbike would be left with nowhere to race or face costly "standardising". He is going to post the new rules for comment but the gist of it is that the older improved machines will be left as is to compete with more standard new machines.

It sounds good and practical in theory, but no doubt some people won't be happy with it.

[Shaun P]

This sounds very much like what we are actually going to end up with.

I spoke to the Road Racing Commissioner prior to buying my new/old bike as I'd heard that updated rules were going to limit machine development in the future. I was worried that a modified Superbike would be left with nowhere to race or face costly "standardising". He is going to post the new rules for comment but the gist of it is that the older improved machines will be left as is to compete with more standard new machines.

It sounds good and practical in theory, but no doubt some people won't be happy with it.

Its standard practise anyway if you read the new rule changes they normally apply to the bikes that are new and the older bikes are ok with the older rules eg no aftermarket pistons in s/bike only apply to bikes manufactured after '07 or something etc