ESE's works engine tuner

[peewee]

yes it appears the rsa does have a funel affect between the inner radius wall and outside wall. what i was refering to is sensos pic, if he keeps a knife edge on the transfer divider, it will create a fairly large funell between the front and back side walls, of both A and B ports. the rsa doesnt seem to have the funel affect on the front/back side walls, at the initial duct entrance

[husaberg]

Yes they could.The carb on the compressor engine was an Amal. The carbs on the roadracing engines were german Bing's, even easier to obtain in Germany than Dellorto's .

few more pics of the Kreider
one from you and one Rob previously posted

[TZ350]

... google "anzani walin hallum" and Images.



The first photo on the top left is Hallum's record-breaker Anzani, with its four carbs and megaphones.

Twin cylinders with the big carb on the central through the crank type rotary valve, then reed valve and piston port carbs.

... google "anzani walin hallum" and Images. The first photo on the top left is Hallum's record-breaker Anzani, with its four carbs and megaphones.

When I was racing outboards, a Seattle-area engineer and friend, Jim Hallum, built the fastest 322cc (class B, 20 cu. in.) outfit in the country, using an Anzani outboard which he modified greatly. This Anzani was essentially similar to the bike engine, but had a cast-iron, water-cooled block and water-cooled aluminum head. Jim eventually coaxed 65hp at 9000 rpm out of this poor old crude engine, and his driver, Gerry Walin, set a kilo straightaway record of 100mph with a Karelsen hydro. This was quite a sensation at the time, because not even the 500 or 700cc hydros had gone 100mph at that point. Of course, today the better 250 hydros can hit 100mph on a good-sized oval racecourse, with good acceleration.

Anyway, take a minute and google "anzani walin hallum" and Images. The first photo on the top left is Hallum's record-breaker Anzani, with its four carbs and megaphones (and 45% nitro). A couple of other racers were building these engines, and I have a pair of them, gathering dust. If you look down the page, there are some photos of the outboard crankcases and iron blocks. Farther down there is one photo of a hydro and Anzani that has curving "ram's horns" expansion chambers (the engine exhausted from top and bottom of the cylinders). This was Hallum's follow-on to the open megaphones, and it made about the same power as the old version but on methanol without any nitro.

I might be able to come up with one (there were 250cc and 322cc blocks) when you have the rest of it. One thing to consider is that an outfit called Harrison built what were pretty much Anzani copies during the late Sixties, and their blocks were sleeved aluminum, thus a whole lot lighter (though they might not be accepted as quite as cool as REAL Anzani parts). One of my Anzanis has a Harrison crankcase and magneto.

Some considerations: My pal Jim Hallum spent over ten years working on these engines before he got them to a good level of reliability. The Lucas mag was easily dealt with when electronic ignitions came along (this is all Pleistocene Era stuff, TZ), but factory rod bearings or cages were an issue, IIRC. Heat build-up in rod bearings is less of a problem with methanol than with gasoline. If and when you get to that point, I can ask Jim what he remembers about it.

The Anzani, in factory trim, took in its A/F charge through both a rotary valve in the center of the crankshaft (big square hole)(and the center section was supported by a bushing, not rollers), AND also passed some of it through piston-ports. Hallum separated these intake tracts, and used a big Vacturi carb to feed the rotary valve, and a little pumper Tillotson to feed the piston-ports. This 2nd carb added considerable power. He later added two more pumper carbs feeding small reedblocks into the crankcase. All three of the popular modes of intake in one engine!! The last two carbs added some more power, though not nearly as much more as the second one. But I expect you to find ways to put all four carbs on your bike!! . . . .

Also, you might want to consider building your bike as a 250. The 322cc version has a B/S of 60X57 and the 250 used the same stroke. It seems that modern B/S thinking of our gurus is favoring somewhat under-square arrangements. Now consider that either Anzani verson feeds its absurdly-small transfers largely (or completely, I forget; I ran Konigs) through windows in opposite sides of the piston skirt. It might be that you can create a better (less-bad as compared to anything modern) transfer passage combination with a 250 than a 322. The 322 would make more power and torque, of course, but you might be able to get the 250 a little closer to what modern engines of the same size do.

[TZ350]

Simulation of Team ESE's next RG50 project .... Absolutely no idea if this can be made or not but we are planing it out as best we can in EngMod2T first.

We are risking our arm and taking the single port exhaust out to 85% (we have found 80 is Ok in a 50 with deep thin steel rings) and keeping the transfers low by making them as wide as possible.



Using EngMod2T to check the STA's

And the pipe design was started by using the EngMod design a "Blair pipe" function then running many simulations in EngMod and changing diameters a millimeter at a time and lengths by 5mm or less at a time.

With many references to Wobblys pipe design comments and Frits %%% we came up with this pipe.



It will be interesting to see how it turns out in reality.

[AndreasL]

TeeZee, is that RG50 a aircoold, piston port one? (From pic 2 above it seems to me its piston port at least?) Maybe a stupis question but I'm not very familiar with the different engines for this bikes.

Some 500 pages ago, dinamik2t posted the picture below.
Have any of you EngMod users managed to visualize the red/blue/green transfer port lines or is this just dinamik2t improving things in paint?
I think its a great feature if it was a way to add this lines within EngMod.

[chrisc]

This vertex piston came out of my '98 Honda RS125 tonight whilst I put a fresh one back in as routine maintenance. The bike still felt strong and smooth the last time I rode it and recently made 40 rwhp on the ESE dyno. To my untrained eye there doesn't seem to be anything particularly terrible here but I'm open to be told otherwise.

Click the photo for larger versions

Note the photo of the side of the piston is the exhaust side and there is a ceramic-ey yellow-ey marking on it which I'm unsure about. Thanks!




I also posted some reference photos of the RS cylinder below. Click the blue arrow in the top of the quote box to see the original post with photos. Nothing new here obviously but worth a look for people like myself who are not well experienced 2 stroke tuners.

I put a new Vertex top end into the NX4 tonight and took some photos along the way for my own reference and interests.
Here they are if anyone else is interested.

NX4 cylinder next to a Suzuki GP125 cylinder with the RS base gasket laid over it. The B port shrouds have been cut out of this cylinder but otherwise it is stock at this time.

[seattle smitty]

To anyone who takes a look at the Anzani racing outboard, above, the big carburetor, which feeds the rotary valve, is a Vacturi taken from some early (1930s-'40s) Evinude production motor. Vacturis were used (in place of a single small Amal) by a few people on these 1960s racemotors because their intenal passages could be enlarged sufficiently to flow large quantities of methanol (with castor oil) and nitro. Note how big the supply hose is. The other three small carbs are Tillotson kart carburetors; the one feeds through piston-ports, the pair through reeds into the crankcase. The long aluminum device atop the Vacturi is a home-fabricated rack-and-pinion that opens/closes the main mixture needle, adjustable from he cockpit. When the engine was started, the mixture was set lean so that plugs didn't foul while the boat was planning-off, with the engine bogged down. Once the boat was on plane and engine revs were coming up, the driver moved a lever to reset the mixture rich for racing.

That the plugs (Autolite AE 403 or 203 recessed-gap, very cold) fouled so easily was due to the gear-driven device that you can see forward of the rope-plate/flywheel . . . a Lucas magneto.

[FastFred]

The long aluminum device atop the Vacturi is a home-fabricated rack-and-pinion that opens/closes the main mixture needle, adjustable from he cockpit. When the engine was started, the mixture was set lean so that plugs didn't foul while the boat was planning-off, with the engine bogged down. Once the boat was on plane and engine revs were coming up, the driver moved a lever to reset the mixture rich for racing.

I just love these racing classes where you can make and modify stuff and find simple handmade answers that make a real difference.

[F5 Dave]

TeeZee, is that RG50 a aircoold, piston port one? (From pic 2 above it seems to me its piston port at least?) Maybe a stupis question but I'm not very familiar with the different engines for this bikes.

Some 500 pages ago, dinamik2t posted the picture below.
Have any of you EngMod users managed to visualize the red/blue/green transfer port lines or is this just dinamik2t improving things in paint?
I think its a great feature if it was a way to add this lines within EngMod.

To answer for Rob: Watercooled, 1/2 piston port, 1/2 crankcase reed common to Suzukis of the 80s.

[FastFred]

Getting ready for Mt Welly tomorrow.

Attachment 303234Attachment 303237

Chambers RG50.

Attachment 303235Attachment 303236

NedKellys RS/Aprilia 50 with pumper carb.

The RG50's :- https://www.flickr.com/photos/sonscc...2063815/page2/

Team ESE RG50's, race numbers 43 and 6 https://www.flickr.com/photos/sonscc...2063815/page2/

TeeZee, is that RG50 a aircoold, piston port one? (From pic 2 above it seems to me its piston port at least?)

To answer for Rob: Watercooled, 1/2 piston port, 1/2 crankcase reed common to Suzukis of the 80s.

[wobbly]

TeeZee, my comment would be that you really are dreaming when assigning a bmep of 14Bar at 13500 using the Suzuki 50/50 inlet system.
This as EngMod shows, it gives 23/24 crank Hp, but the sim only makes 19 and is falling off the cliff big time by 14,000.
Thus the transfer/Ex port system is well overspecd in relation to what the rest of the engine can achieve.
Plus something is seriously wrong if a pipe 660 long wont rev to 15,000 +, what pipe wall temp are you using.

Re the EngMod transfer radial coloured lines shown from a previous post of an Aprilia - its not even close to a real Aprilia scavenge system at all, and yes EngMod does
give you the diagram as shown but not with coloured lines.

[TZ350]

TeeZee, my comment would be that you really are dreaming ....

Absolutely, its one of the few things I am truly good at, like ....

... something is seriously wrong if a pipe 660 long wont rev to 15,000 +, what pipe wall temp are you using.

This is the temperature file I used for the original RG50 simulation, Red line.



I grabbed this pre packaged TZ250 temperature file and re ran the simulation, Blue line.



And Wob just like you said it would, it ran to 15,000 no problems.

The problem was, I had 50 as the pipe wall temperature in the RG simulation, maybe it should have been 500.

Ran it again with the pre packaged RS125 temperature file, Brown line, and 500, Green line, the temperature profile sure makes a difference.

I guess, just like in real life, like when the ignition is retarded to heat the pipe.....



Wob thanks for pointing my mistake out, sure saved me big time. Is there a handy rule of thumb to use for pipe wall temperatures when developing a simulation of a new motor?

[teriks]

Is there a handy rule of thumb to use for pipe wall temperatures when developing a simulation of a new motor?

Neels recently updated the pipe temperature model. You'll need to add ~300C compared older simulations if you installed the V5.2.1 update.

[AndreasL]

Yes Wob, I'm using the transfer lay out plot. A possibility to extend the transfer walls like in dinamik2t's example would be a "nice to have" but not super critical.

When touching the subject, is there generally a benefit in letting the rear wall collision point intersect outside the bore diameter insted of meeting at the bore rear wall? I will see what I get from EngMod but if anyone have any theories about this please let us know.

[seattle smitty]

I've observed that people here aren't bothered when two or three tech topics are being discussed concurrently, but I'm a little worried about interjecting this little bit of cross-talk because it comes from my vast ignorance (not entire, but still vast) of bike racing, so I hope that this is not old hat and a yawning bore to y'all.

I do know that traction for big-bore and even 250cc 2-stroke racers was a problem due to the 2Ts turbine-like power delivery, and at the other end of the roadracing world, Harley-Davidson, about three generations behind in engine design, were nevertheless quite effective on either dirt or pavement with their shaking 45degree V-twins, with their ba-bang . . . ba-bang powerstrokes hooking the tire to the track by acting sort of like a backwards version of anti-lock braking. I've stated elsewhere here that traction is no problem in outboard racing, that a modern racing propeller hooks the power to the water very effectively, and that the "droner-motors" and other weird traction remedies by 2-stroke bike tuners were not needed in boats. But I'm curious about engine layouts as relates to motorcycle traction and engine power delivery and balance.

Balance is far from a simple subject, but am I right in my notion that a two-stroke TWIN tends not to shake too much when the cylinders are either:

Opposed (with a crank that's well supported at either end, no center bearing, and a crank center section that's not hugely wide),

Parallel (with the cylinders as close to each other as possible)(which good sweeping ports makes very difficult),

or, a 90degree Vee (with similar crankshaft considerations to the Opposed-twin).

And I think this all applies to a 2-stroke four . . . .

If I have it right so far(??), tell me about 2-stroke V-twins, pros and cons. Were these used in GP bike racing, and did this help traction? (And were opposed-twins tried?). I've never seen a 2-stroke V-twin (except a photo of a street bike sold only in Japan, in the mid-Eighties), much less an opposed-twin (which in a bike calls for an oddball transmission). It would seem that the best modern porting schemes result in cylinders so wide that they are coming near to precluding their use in parallel-twins (without employing the kind of counter-balance shaft used in some singles). In outboards, opposed twins have become the deal-schenielle; light, low C/G, lots of grunt out of the corners, good balance and smooth running. Currently they are displacing opposed-fours of the same displacement that make more top-end power because with the light weight and low C/G the boats work better and they are quicker around the course despite not being as fast as an equally modern four.

The problem with making all your power with an opposed-twin with two cylinders that go bang at the same time is that it really puts the fear in your lower unit gears. To reduce drag, a racing lower unit needs to be as sleek and streamlined and SMALL as possible, with a pair of tiny bevel-gears transmitting those big bangs to the propshaft. That the prop is set up to be about halfways out of the water, with the blades slamming into and ripping out of the water with every revolution, makes life harder yet for those bevel gears. One development that has surely helped is the trend to three-, four-, and even five-blade racing propellors in place of the 2-blade props I raced with; having more blades in the water during each powerstroke of the engine somewhat reduces the loading/unloading of the gears from the propshaft side.

Still, the modern opposed twins tend to be lower-unit-eaters. So I'm wondering about 2-stroke V-twins (and V-fours). They would seem to have the light weight and low C/G of the opposed twins while not shaking too badly and while separating the power strokes so as not to put such big hits to the lower unit gears . . . .

What are the considerations I need to take into account?

(EDIT) Well, a big part of what I thought I "knew" about motorcycle traction turns out to be myth. Check Frits' post #15577, and visit his link.