ESE's works engine tuner

[RAW]

Wobbly. Are you going to the Phillip Island Classic ?

[wobbly]

Na, really pissed as Trevs health is too suspect at this stage to go.
The Frepin is pretty much ready to rock but havnt touched it due to the other issue.
Might need to bolt in a young gun to help on the way to road racing glory.

[richban]

Might need to bolt in a young gun to help on the way to road racing glory.

How about an old gun.

[Grumph]

A little advice from the gurus please...

i have a project on the stocks which will involve casting my own cases etc - not really a problem, but i have a couple of questions on engine architecture.
i want to do a horizontal single - I have a watercooled barrel so i don't think cooling will be a problem and i can always jacket the crankcase anyway.
But - my big question is, "orthodox" side rotary valve or on top of the cases with a downdraft carb ?

which leads to the other question - Downdraft jetski carbs, how tunable ? i've never used them but I'm aware others here have. Budget will not permit injection...

Comments please.

[husaberg]

I'm no guru but I do have a few pics
So this might save you a bit of time Yoda claus


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...7&d=1413067504
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...6&d=1413067502
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...5&d=1413067501
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...4&d=1413067499
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...3&d=1413067498
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...4&d=1413067484


or
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...3&d=1413067365

or
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...7&d=1420961298
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...2&d=1420961294
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...3&d=1420961295
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...4&d=1420961295

I used to ride a bucket that a mate done with a huge Keihin jet ski carb went very well but had issues over fueling on the overrun....they pump fuel regardless of throttle position. Jennings had a fix for it back in the 70's
Rob has a copy of it I think.

as for reed you could do a Rumi style with a fairly conventional downdraft carb in reverse.
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/w...nnen0031-1.jpg

[Grumph]

OK, thanks Husa. Yes, some nice work there - but what are they ? I see no identification as to what the motors are. And all appear to be conventional side rotary valve. Point taken re the pumper carbs. I may be able to get my hands on an Ibea - any good Wob ?

Some snow as in the pic would be very welcome at present...

[Flettner]

OK, thanks Husa. Yes, some nice work there - but what are they ? I see no identification as to what the motors are. And all appear to be conventional side rotary valve. Point taken re the pumper carbs. I may be able to get my hands on an Ibea - any good Wob ?

Some snow as in the pic would be very welcome at present...

Rear RV is best, but I would look at the 24/7 type reed valve system, appears to work well and no drive needed.

[TZ350]

Page 1090 ......

Links Posted because I was asked about the det sensor and temp data logger.

Attachment 297425

Hi F5 I have a four channel temperature data logger and intend to pretty much do what you suggest if I can figure out how to work the logger software. If you have a source for light but high temp (250-350 C) K type thermocouple wire I would love to know.

Hi Neal, the detector/amplifier I got of Ebay comes with lights and I currently use an optional extra output to signal the ignition to retard when there is detonation. I recently got another detector with two extra outputs, one for the ignition retard and another for a det counter. I have not got around to trying the det counter yet.

Attachment 294223

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-...e9e926&vxp=mtr

If you have an amplifier/detector like the one I got of Ebay the very left green light will be on when the ignition is on and then you tune it so that you get a strong second green light when your starting a dyno pull on WOT and the middle orange lights should just start to come on when your at max power, and you will not miss the very bright right hand red light when there is deto.

You have to tune it because cylinders are different diameters and therefore deto has a different frequencie on a big cylinder compared to a smaller diameter one. If your getting one of these, don't forget to get it with the optional extra wires out for switching the ignition, det counter etc other wise you will only get a box with lights.

A head bolt is probably best, For a V twin Twin .... get another knock sensor from pick a part and wire them in parallel that way you will see deto on either cylinder otherwise go for the known troublesome one.

Attachment 294192Attachment 294193

Posted because I was recently asked about the det sensor I used. I earthed one of the two wires.

Probably does not matter which. As knock sensors usually only have one wire I guess they are earthed through the brass part of the body. So I am not sure if you need to earth one wire or if there are two sensors in this unit to cover a wider range of frequencies. Anyway mine worked with one of the wires earthed.

In the interests of science I have brought a data logger and 4 channel thermocouple interface from europerformance http://www.europerformance.co.nz/ who are a certified distributor for Innovate Motorsports and XT Racing and also carry other performance and race parts.

Attachment 291648

Pocket Data Logger $95 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=677818916

Attachment 291647 http://www.europerformance.co.nz/pro...products_id=84

Thermocouple interface $145 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=677819590

Attachment 286854Attachment 286853

Det Sensor

Attachment 270747

I have just received another Knock Gauge, this one has two extra outputs. http://www.knockgauge.eu/content/blogcategory/22/41/

YouTube links showing the Knock Gauge in action.

The two green lights, the orange warning light then you see the red det light. http://youtu.be/aZkZR-JBr_E and http://youtu.be/vFoZyw_sHmA

Like last time, one that goes to ground for signaling the IgniTec to retard and a new one that pulses from 0V to +5V each time the Knock Gauge sees a detonation event.

The Curtis event counter can then count the detonations. Now I have the makings of a det sensor, ignition retarder and det counter.

This post links back to various cheap counters that could be used with the Knock Gauge.

The Trumeter 7111 is no longer stocked by RS but they do have something similar.

Attachment 269009

703TR002N-512D RS part number 183-5952 $63.50 ... 5-12V and less than 10mA so easily self powered and at 500Hz fast enough to count all deto events as seen by the Knock Gauge or similar, as 200Hz in a 2-Stroke equals 12,000 rpm.

Attachment 269008

And here is something if you want to try your hand at making a complete det counter for your self.

Attachment 269011

RS part number 185-6090 $45.30

You could box this along with an amp or frequency filter from Jaycar and make you own little compact det counter.

Attachment 269012

Electrical specs.

Attachment 269014

Two different ways to go, with an amp you would count the high amplitude deto peaks or you could use a band or high pass frequency filter and count whatever passes through it.

Relocated the knock sensor. I found some steel head bolts and faced one off, then drilled and tapped it. And made a standoff that was carefully faced off as the knock sensor likes to be securely mounted on a very flat surface. The black goop (silicon glue) on the blue wire is there as a strain relief and hopefully it will stop the vibration breaking the wire where it is attached to the copper head fin.

Attachment 266445

Good luck with the Deto sensing TZ. I like the little warning instrument!

Here's how I mounted my sensor. I drilled-tapped an old head bolt and screwed a stud.

Attachment 263051Attachment 263052

My sensor has a PN 0-261-231-001, what's yours?
According to this http://www.phormula.co.uk/KnockCalculator.aspx , deto freq for 56mm bore should be 10.2kHz.
According to Bosch datasheets for PN -047 & -120, sensors are able to catch frequencies from 1 to 20 kHz.
I assume all Bosch sensors can sense knock within this range (?)

edit: As for the pick-up voltage, I think it won't be more than +-10V. I had a voltage test yesterday with a data acquisition device in real time! I spinned the crank by hand and recorder the voltage waveform from the pick-up in the PC. As RPM increase, amplitude (and freq of course) of the pulses increase - by hand-spinning it didn't exceed 3~3.5 VAC. Sure it was a lot of fun to watch!

[speedpro]

Wobbly, I hear your pain

[husaberg]

OK, thanks Husa. Yes, some nice work there - but what are they ? I see no identification as to what the motors are. And all appear to be conventional side rotary valve. Point taken re the pumper carbs. I may be able to get my hands on an Ibea - any good Wob ?

Some snow as in the pic would be very welcome at present...

The top ones are a set made using cad then 3d printed in plastic to check then cnc'd they are for a ktm50 cylinder stolen from a thread on pitlane "self designed 50cc" http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3187-50cc-s...cc-race-engine
can't remember if the gearbox was Honda or Derbi or am6. but it looks Honda MB or CR80 early.

later

- rotary inlet with 32mm carb
- self designed crankcase (will be CNC machined in the near future)
- main components (crank, gearbox, clutch and so on) from Derbi Euro 3 engine
- cylinder from KTM
- battery ignition and water pump

Then the single pic I forget but Frits won't have...

Then Keidler (gee Greg those didn't need a name as they had names on them)

Then Rumi.

oh one I missed. ....Emot experimental?

I like this one as it is based on circles and with the horizontal cylinder, it can be seemingly made slimmer than with an upright cylinder due to the rv inlet being a head of the primary rather than on top of it.

[Tim Ey]

The top ones are a set made using cad then 3d printed in plastic for a ktm50 cylinder the are from a thread on pitlane self designed 50cc.
can't remember if the gearbox was Honda or Derbi or am6. but it looks Honda MB or CR80 early

It was a Derbi Senda gearbox :-)
An awesome project indeed.

Cheers!

[wobbly]

The Rumi used a Keihin FCR 4T carb that can be run all but vertical, the jets are the same as a normal PWK etc
Mikuni do a similar flat slide carb with a horizontal bowl,but pumper carbs can be made to work very well as every part of the system is adjustable
like the lever height and pop off pump pressure etc.
Ibea flat slide with 3 jets is the real shit as they flow well and are fully tweakable in every respect - especially if its a rare ( expensive as hell ) flat slide..
The only issue is that they need a fairly big bore around the throttle plate and a small venturi in front of that - unless an aux venturi is fitted, then the flow capability is compromised.

The rear RV ( top ) is the elegant solution but I hate the usual right angle belt drive setup that many use after seeing a video of one running
and during a dyno test the belt goes completely spastic at several rpm bands - so how often would that occur in a 30 lap final.
I am doing one at the moment with a simple straight belt on the side behind the ignition and a right angle cylkro gear drive behind the RV.

[Grumph]

The Rumi used a Keihin FCR 4T carb that can be run all but vertical, the jets are the same as a normal PWK etc
Mikuni do a similar flat slide carb with a horizontal bowl,but pumper carbs can be made to work very well as every part of the system is adjustable
like the lever height and pop off pump pressure etc.
Ibea flat slide with 3 jets is the real shit as they flow well and are fully tweakable in every respect.
The only issue is that they need a fairly big bore around the throttle plate and a small venturi in front of that - unless an aux venturi is fitted, then the flow capability is compromised.

The rear RV ( top ) is the elegant solution but I hate the usual right angle belt drive setup that many use after seeing a video of one running
and during a dyno test the belt goes completely spastic at several rpm bands - so how often would that occur in a 30 lap final.
I am doing one at the moment with a simple straight belt on the side behind the ignition and a right angle cyclo drive behind the RV.

Thanks Wob. Belts - I remember Dick Hurdeman telling me he had to allow huge valve to piston on the BMS Ducatis as the timing varied to a scary amount when strobed on the Dyno. The Britten had similar probs so twisted belt isn't desirable...
Flettner - I'm stuck with a conventional rotary valve barrel and have no desire whatsoever to cast my own thanks...relevant quote which I'm sure Frits is familiar with - "the first concept of superior principle is always defeated by the perfected example of established practice". Or as Mike Sinclair put it - "you only need a 5% improvement, not a revolution"

[Peter1962]

The Rumi used a Keihin FCR 4T carb that can be run all but vertical, the jets are the same as a normal PWK etc
Mikuni do a similar flat slide carb with a horizontal bowl,but pumper carbs can be made to work very well as every part of the system is adjustable
like the lever height and pop off pump pressure etc.
Ibea flat slide with 3 jets is the real shit as they flow well and are fully tweakable in every respect - especially if its a rare ( expensive as hell ) flat slide..
The only issue is that they need a fairly big bore around the throttle plate and a small venturi in front of that - unless an aux venturi is fitted, then the flow capability is compromised.

The rear RV ( top ) is the elegant solution but I hate the usual right angle belt drive setup that many use after seeing a video of one running
and during a dyno test the belt goes completely spastic at several rpm bands - so how often would that occur in a 30 lap final.
I am doing one at the moment with a simple straight belt on the side behind the ignition and a right angle cylkro gear drive behind the RV.

Cylkro gear, that was the brand that Frits advised for the RSA also. Too bad aprilia did not follow the advise.

Do you intend to use this on a kart engine or is it for a MX engine ?

[husaberg]

The rear RV ( top ) is the elegant solution but I hate the usual right angle belt drive setup that many use after seeing a video of one running
and during a dyno test the belt goes completely spastic at several rpm bands - so how often would that occur in a 30 lap final.
I am doing one at the moment with a simple straight belt on the side behind the ignition and a right angle cylkro gear drive behind the RV.

Cylkro gear, that was the brand that Frits advised for the RSA also. Too bad aprilia did not follow the advise.

?

Is that what the Mihindra had.....?

Reply to myself well it could be the Mahindra............
i found these pics